You could get him shooting 2moa at 400 yards in 10 mins with out dialing.... and now he would be prepared for 99% of hunting situations

Yep. Could do that do. The dial number is the same as the hold number, 1.8 Mil. Dial it or hold it, you pick.

Your first paragraph is what I was trying to say and you said it better. The vast majority of those people put their feeder 100y or less from their box blind and call it a season. I have no problem with that for the record, hats of they are shooting within their abilities and comfort.

The 5:1 comment actually was for total scope sold, including the guys in the paragraph above.

Now as for what I shoot, I shoot benchrest at something reactive...steel, asprins, thumbtacks but the majority of the time it is clay targets to about 500m. In that game it is 100:1 MOA vs Mil turrets and there is 5:1 Nightforce Benchrest scopes to anything else...close 2nd would be a Sightron SIII. If you came and sighted in at one of those matches I would be shocked if there wasn't but a few guys that could tell spot for you in MIL's...everything is inches/feet.

No reason for this difference of opinion to be nothing but civil we can disagree without resulting in petty BS. I too appreciate it.

Moat F-Class guys run MOA as well.

And weirdos like you.

True enough. I bet a good bit of the shooters competing for the Wimbledon Cup are using MOA as well.

I bet that's right. They can dial in finer increments. They also have all the time in the world to make their shots, all at the same distance to target.

Finer increments......tote shot placement.......

In your original post you did not mention if you are hunting prairie dogs or elephants. Lots of different applications. If price is not an option look at the "March" line of scopes. All the way to 80 power if that's what you want. March is the best scope on the best match rifles of the top competitors in the country.

Bud of mine has a March, so far so good. And he's sent lead 1400 yards with the rifle it's mounted on.

Bobo, I already adressed shot placement.

One thing on the March scopes is they have a rep for being a bit unforgiving on eye position and the parallax setting.

One of our staff guys is testing the 3-24x42 FFP mil/mil right now.
I need to check it out over the weekend.

We have 3 Marches in testing
The 1-8 and the big high powered one.

If you send me an 18 year old that has never shot a rifle, I can get him hitting 2 MOA steel outside 1/4 mile, by lunch. That's one example of my reasoning. [/quote]


i keep hearing this...no disrespect intended...
this is not rocket science... to get a newbie shooting to 1k yrds in day. ive seen that many many times. but i guarantee you that newby would not be able to replicate that on his own, without your spotting and being there right next to him... without some serious practice and range time and training. it wont help him when he goes out on his own and goes hunting and tries to shoot long range.

so its really irrelevant to be able to get someone to shoot to 1k yrds in a day, if they cant go out and replicate that on their own.

now i do agree that the mil based system is superior to moa, but for different reasons. my reasoning is that no 2 moa scopes are alike. manufacturers havnt been able to get a same same system for moa throughout scopes like mil is same same. a mil on a vortex viper is a mil on a leupy or a nightforce, or even on a tapsco. but an moa doesnt work that way, manufactures dont have any regular standards throughout the scope world.

Schmidt and bender 5-25x56 PMII

period!

[/quote]

Please explain how MOA varies between manufacturers. The only variations I have ever seen are in the amount of adjustment in the turrets per click which is no different than MIL stuff.

this is well documented...its simple, an moa at one manufacturer isnt always the same moa at another manufacturer. this wont affect you hardly at all for short ranges but when you get out to long range and extreme long range, a spotter might make a wind call in moa, and if you dial on, you might not hit.

They are either MOA or IPHY (inch per hundred yards) it's fairly simple. Now I have seen a few low power non long range oriented scopes marked for one and be the other. Also Leupold has been known for this as well.

Spotting or calling hits only as difficult if it is made to be. Every one I shoot with shoots and spots with MOA scopes so a person that shoots in MIL will have a difficult time.

Nighteagle,

No he won't be able to replicate 1k on his own (never referred to 1k). But 500 and in, yes. Especially when I start explaining from the beginning. MV, BC, trajectory both vertical, and horizontal, translated to Mils, ect.

You know well, 500 and in isn't a big deal with a little schooling and the right optic.

I am in the same predicament. Just took delivery of a Larue PredatOBR in 762. Trying to find the best all around scope for the $$$. It's easy if you have unlimited funds but if you want the best bang for the $$$ what would you all buy? The gun would be used for paper targets and hunting. Most deer < 100yds. Varmint hunting < 400 yds.

I am looking intensely at:
1. Leupold VX6 3-18 x 50mm illumintaed SFP cost $1299 its SFP but with 200 yd zero should be good for any game <400 yds?
2. SWFA SS 3-15 x 42 FFP non-illuminated $700 bargain price
3. Bushnell 3.5-21 x50 Elite Tactical FFP $1449 cons very heavy

any other thoughts?

Those 3 are excellent scopes. The swfa might be lacking in the glass department compared to the other 2 if it is not an HD model.

I have the 3-18 vx6... Actually 2 of them.. Its a great scope and would be my pick,of those 3.

Swarovski z5 3.5-18x44 BT 4w would be the same price as the bushnell and a way better scope IMO.

Like with a standard duplex ret on a $200 Leupold with knobs under caps.

Sure, if you want to make it harder than it has to be. You 20-40 year veteran shooters had/ have the equipment available to you at the time, learned with it, practiced with it, pushed you distance farther, had failures and successes. You have hundreds and thousands of rounds of practice doing it the hard way and you don't want to let that go, fine. You earned it. All I'm saying is that we are blessed than common men can hit farther, and smaller that civilians could hope for 20 years ago. Once the information is taught the learning curve is not so harsh.

a minute of angle is constant, unless a manufacture can bend the space, time continuum then a spotting scope with a reticle and a rifle scope with a reticle do indeed work together. Now if there is a manufacturing defect and the hash marks are off or wong on one or the other then that's just poor QA and a poor or a bad product but a MOA is a MOA is a MOA

That's true, but junking up a reticle on a hunting set-up or needing a big scope to do it also makes things more difficult than it needs to be. It really doesn't take a genius since it's just simple linear math once the bullet leaves the barrel.