To explain my point, y'all are part of the 2%'ers ...meaning if you aren't shooting tactical matches no one ever talks MIL they talk inches aka MOA. If the guy never plans on shooting tactical matches (as I said a hunting scope only) there is no reason to learn the mil system.

I do agree with dee in that a moa/moa recticle is ideal but in most situations I would think you would hold over and not twist dials. Spin for elevation and hold for wind has almost always been what I hear everyone doing. For the clay games I will sight in to get a zero in the morning and then rarely will I spin for windage the rest of the day I'll hold. But I also have flags that help I know, I'm cheating.

I agree to appoint... But moa is not inches and that is what most hunters don't understand. Moa is a degree of an angle. Iphy is inches but not many scopes are listed as such. IMHO I think that if enough people understood that it would make the market for scopes much better.

Walter

What I find funny is when a scope is marked MOA but when checked is actually a IPHY adjustments. Most will never know if one is or not but I personally box test every scope I have to make sure they are correctly working.

If I am buying a scope to use for hunting purposes only, I will buy an MOA scope. I have 2 NF scopes in MOA that I like to use. they work the same as a mil scope, but have a finer adjustment, which is what I like.

Point made...I doubt very many people can distingish .047 of an inch

The real problem in my mind is the US doesn't teach or think it metric values while the rest fo the world does. If we all talked, thought and processed metric numbers my guess is the moa/iphy vs mil ratio would be considerably different.

I honestly don't think my mind would work in a mil way easily and would be much better @ US math Kinda the old dog new tricks deal. Plus, the MOA math is fairly simple if I remember correctly...isn't it: number of inches of target divided by number of MOA x 100 equals yards to target?

I only will use Mil/Mil/FFP scopes for "tactical" or long range use.
For hunting, I really don't care because _I_ am not shooting past 500 and most likely under that.
As such, a scope like the Swarovski with the ballistic turret and the 4w reticle with 2 M0A wind holds is fine.
If I need to take a long shot, I will have the extra .5 second to go to max power.
It has index marks that you can set, for me, with a 280 Ackley I run a 250 yard zero, first mark is 350, then 400, then 450, plus 4 for 500.
Simple sticker on the scope tells me my corresponding wind holds at 10 MPH

If hunting the same conditions all the time a custom turret with your range marks works for most hunters just fine.

Like I said, I like a "tactical" scope where I can dial in elevation and hold (or dial) for wind.
But most are heavier than I want on light bolt action.

all of this debate depends on what the op definition of long range is. for anything under 300-400 yards/meters, cross hairs will work fine. anything past that and you have to start thinking bout elevation holds and wind holds among many other things.

i dont hunt, i shoot strictly tactical style steel targets and such, but everybody i shoot with...with the exception of 1 person, speaks mils. all scopes and spotters have mil based reticles...except for that 1 guy... i learned on an moa/mil scope so i am very familiar with converting moa to mil, but most of the other peeps cant, so i usually end up spotting for him. point being, if your peeps speak mil, and you dont, you are gonna be at a disadvantage, and may miss an important shot because you are trying to math rather than just dialing on and shooting.

personally i cant see why moa is better for hunting anyway, they are both units of measurment, and both work just as well.

so to the op, get a scope with a system that your peeps and friends have and train with that, and you will be fine.

Kahles
March
Swavorski
Schmit and Bender
Zeis
Hensfoldt
Vortex Razor HD
SWFA SS HD
Nightforce

There are so many great options, but best is subjective...

Judd,

The only thing metric about Mils is the number of clicks between whole numbers.

A Mil is a yard at 1000 yards, it's an inch at 1000 inches, a centimeter at 1000 centimeter, a foot at 1000 feet. Angular, and that's it. At 500 yards it's half a yard, at 100 yards it's 1/10 of a yard. MOA is an angular measurement as well, but there are 4 quarters between whole numbers. If you're an MOA guy, fine, but you are in the minority by a wide margin. Will both work to shoot anything at distance? Yes. But more shooters are using Mils for engaging paper, steel, or hide, at distance, these days.

^^^^^^^good post...

I'll say okay...except for the bold part and we can agree to disagree on that. Way to many guys out there with $200 scopes that are not even recticle matching turrets to say that and we know neither of them are mil.

Also, for my game I have never seen a single person use MIL or even utter the word...for your game I realize it is true. So it might just be the people we hang with but I'd still say MOA scopes are sold 5:1 over MIL as an industry. Think of all the Leupy scopes on guns out there

I would say 90% of the hunters think in inches
8 % think in MOA
2 % think in MIl

Lots of good info been posted here.

Has the op been back yet. Or did this just make him more confused?

Walter

He was talking about <400 yards, found out he had to buy a NF, re-take calculus in metric, take a 700 dollar LR class, then another reloading class, and buy special bullet pointers for perfect BC

What do you think

Walter

Yes there are millions of hunters with $200 Leupies with 1/4" @ 100 knobs under caps and duplex reticles. Those guys also limit themselves to 200 yards give or take. There is no Mil or MOA, therefore no way to have a true wind hold, it's just a wild azz guess.

What's the game you play where MOA sells 5:1 to Mil? Benchrest? Palma?

OP asked about long range hunting scopes. The same scopes will be used by myself as well as many others that shoot in scenarios that are multiple distances, multiple posistions and under a very short clock, the same as hunting. MOA/ MOA or Mil/ Mil are both fine. I'm seeing Mil outrun MOA by several lengths at least in the scenario of precision coupled with speed.

Thank you for bringing your expertise to the table! On-lookers can see a calm, respectful, and educational debate, and hopefully take some good information away from it.

I bet you're right! I aim to change that.

Give or take 400 yards or less would be better statement which is 99% of shots taken on game in the US.

There is a difference between peoples thought of hunting long range and yours.

I get it you want to be that 1%. But that 1% answers and thoughts aren't the best for the other 99% of hunters.

Almost every mfg now offers a BDC turret, most 1" scopes have enough elevation to get you to 600 yards, with moa wind marks its pretty easy to get that far. Under 400 not hard to figure out 14" on an animal, stronger wind then that means easier to get closer. I have no idea how any one ever shot animals over a 100 yards before the LR push

Not saying you are wrong in your process, just have to remember not everyone going to put range time in to take advantage of specialize gear or care to learn it

I look at like, if I were asking several hot rod experts "how do I build a 10 second car?" I'd try to absorb what I'm told. Me- "but I want to do it with my 1979 F-250 4 x 4" I'd probably get a whoa! That is going to be very tough to accomplish.

If asked about a long range scope I'm going to answer based on experience. On steel and on hide. If the answers I give aren't popular, should I apologize? Yes "long range" may be a different definition from one guy to another. I'm answering based on my definition.

You toss in a 6.7 psd with special fuel rails.

No you shouldn't apologize, you are very good and very skilled at what you do. Im merely pointing out you can get three 15 second cars that will really accomplish what you want to do for the price of the 10 second car that your never going to get enough drive time to make it hit the 10 seconds mark.

Basically got to figure out if the 10 second or 15 second cars better option

Understood.

I'll throw this at you. If several people say they're staying 400 yards and in, my "large" 400 yard steel is 8" round, that's deer vitals sized. The wind hold at 400 yards, with the .260 Rem/ 140 gr A-max is .3 Mil per 5 mph at 90 degrees. Today was what? 15 mph-20 mph? That's .9 to 1.2 Mil wind hold (of course that's after dialing elevation) 1.5 to 1.8 equates to 13" to 17.3" of wind drift, at the target. Without having the Mil or MOA reticle the windage is a rough estimate.

Yes if a guy takes the time to measure his reticle at a 100 yard ruler then he will have a pretty good idea as to what the duplex means, but most don't take the time to find out. All I'm saying is there are better tools for the task. And one does not have to spend a fortune to get a pretty good tool, same as what you are saying.

Another vote for the swaro with ballistic turret. It's easy to understand and setup,crystal clear and it works. Maybe it's not the best for shooting matches but the OP is wanting a hunting scope. I shoot with a friend a few times a year that digs out rifles with nightforce nxs and S&Bs for the range, but carries a rifle with the swaro BT when hunting. Who wants to lug around a rifle with 2lbs of glass to the deer stand anyways? I personally have the 3.5-18x44 and Love it, will be buying another soon. Y'all are making this sound wayyyy to complicated for a hunting scope.

Deers vitals are bigger then 8". A Deer head from to nose to back of his head is roughly 13" same with antelope.
Next time you shot a deer measure from behind his head to top shoulder blade, then measure top of shoulder blade to last rib. Learn it its an interesting number


Knowing animal anatomy goes along way. Just like if I took away you retical or ability to dial, chances are your going to hit that 8" steel, using the steel its self as a measurement. Ya over 400 it gets pretty tough to do, but very do able at 400
I grew up with the wind,

I get it tools make it easier, counting fence posts suck for range and god bless vortex.

Just saying lots of other tools out there

Maybe I'm too tough on myself in the size of my desired bullet impact. Everybody touts shot placement, that's what I'm after as well.

Oh, and I have no doubt in your ability, as well as how you've adapted. But that came with decades of experience. If you send me an 18 year old that has never shot a rifle, I can get him hitting 2 MOA steel outside 1/4 mile, by lunch. That's one example of my reasoning.