I don't think you gain much by shooting 30-06 ballistically.

The .308 is a very predictable round. Velocity/powder charge go hand in hand with the bullet weight. With the 30-06, this is not as predictable. The 30-06 is a great round, but long action vs short can be a draw back as well.

For most there is a common misconception that the 308 is more accurate, which it is no more than any other cartridge.

wrong

Have any facts to back that statement up?

yes, history.

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

short cartridges are inherently more accurate, wanna know what dominates competition, all short cartridges, the most accurate 100 yd gun would be the 22 ppc.
6.5x284, 243, 308, 708,260, 6,5 creedmore, 6mm ppc, 22, ppc
all dominate and share one thing, short cartridges, they are more efficient at burn and do it consistently.
yes some cartridges are indeed more accurate than others

You might want to research a little more and find some actual facts. Powder charge/ load density has more to do with accuracy than case design.

the ppc was specifically designed for accuracy, case design does make a difference

It is the smallest part of the equation, 90% of shooters can't shoot the difference to notice even in rail gun configurations.

It is the smallest part of the equation, 90% of shooters can't shoot the difference to notice even in rail gun configurations.

Now if you can just find ammo for the .308! Might just have to dig out my old .06...



(at least I've got plenty of brass, bullets, powder & primers)

It's a simple answer. The '06 can push the exact same .308 bullet about 150 to 200 fps faster than a 308 Win. More speed equals more energy, less drop and less wind drift. More speed also means more recoil. Simple.

I've shot many deer and hogs with a .308 and none walked away. I guess they fell because they thought they got shot by a .30-06.

If your trying to make a point ya lost me, the same can be said for 22's to 458's thats not really whats being discussed.

It's a simple answer. The '06 can push the exact same .308 bullet about 150 to 200 fps faster than a 308 Win. More speed equals more energy, less drop and less wind drift. More speed also means more recoil. Simple.

There are economic and logistics advantages for the shorter case of the .308 and that is why the military adopted it.

The difference in recoil between the .308 and the 30-06 is not enough for my shoulder to perceive. They will both shoot the exact same bullet. There are economic and logistics advantages for the shorter case of the .308 and that is why the military adopted it. The public followed suit and the .308 surpassed the 30-06 in popularity. It will never surpass the 30-06 in performance...

I think it had to do much more with the desire to develop automatic and semi-automatic battle rifles. They obviously wanted to stay as close as they could to the performance of the .30-06, but a shorter cartridge could be made to feed more reliably.

Most all scopes are cammed for .308 I am partial to .308.

The old Springfield should be a worthy companion to my .375 H&H Whitworth.

serve no better purpose in hunting than a .308..which is cheaper
to shoot..Don

It's a simple answer. The '06 can push the exact same .308 bullet about 150 to 200 fps faster than a 308 Win. More speed equals more energy, less drop and less wind drift. More speed also means more recoil. Simple.

Lots of mumbo jumbo, ford vs chevy on this subject but Chads comments speak the truth.

Think about it, you don't here of a navy SEAL sniper using a 30-06, or any military sniper for that matter.

if I did the ballistics right, the 308 is more powerful than the 06.

You didn't.

You didn't.

I didn't think I did, give me a few more minutes and I'll redo it and post what I get.

Yep, 30-06, 2700ft. 308 2500

The 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge started out as the experimental T65 cartridge. This should not be confused with the Incom T65 which is a much older & completely different military endeavor. The T65 was basically a lengthened version of the .300 Savage case & was a joint effort between the U.S. military & Winchester.

The whole purpose behind the T65 project was to produce a cartridge that was compatible with the military's ideas on a new rifle. The military planners wanted a select fire rifle that could fill the role of an assault weapon & a battle rifle. The .30-06 Springfield cartridge was to be replaced because the military planners felt that it was too powerful for use in a select fire weapon (in other words it made the weapon barely controllable) & that each .30-06 cartridge weighed too much. The T65 was viewed as a more controllable, lighter weight substitute for the .30-06. Because it was less powerful it could be used in select fire weapons with greater ease, & its lighter weight per round meant that a soldier could either carry more ammo for the same weight or the same number of rounds for less weight.

The T65 if you haven't guessed became the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge (actually the T65E3 was the final version before it was adopted. But Winchester introduced their version of the T65 in 1952 as the .308 Winchester. It was later on (1953 or 1854) that the military finalized the cartridge as the 7.62x51mm NATO. It wasn't until 1957 that the cartridge actually had a platform in the U.S. Rifle, Cal. 7.62 M14.

This is still being debated? Here's how it goes... You find an article defending what you prefer and I find one defending what I prefer, add a few comments and then repeat.

Never mind,this is entertaining. Keep it going!

When I saw the title of the post that's exactly what I saw coming. Same damn thing when someon posts "Savage vs. Remington" ".243 vs. xxx", ."308 vs. xxx" "best long range cartridge" I could go on.

Still entertaining to see the ruffled feathers.

You might want to research a little more and find some actual facts. Powder charge/ load density has more to do with accuracy than case design. Picking the right powder that fills the case the most will usually yield the best results in accuracy.

As far as the cartridges you listed 6.5-284 is run in a long action or a single shot. Jump up to F-Class open and you will find every thing from 243 to 300win mag with just about anything in between. Last record was set with a long action built 284 Winchseter with 180gr Bergers.

So, unless you are a top level competition shooter, it doesn't seem to matter that much. And, by reading the links and a lot more stuff, it "appears" that the .308 is a tad better up to 500 yards but can't compete with the 06 at 1,000 yards.

That's not right. I've shot a whole bunch of tactical matches. Most of them go out to 1000 yards or farther. I've seen scores of .308s and not a single .30-06.

So, unless you are a top level competition shooter, it doesn't seem to matter that much. And, by reading the links and a lot more stuff, it "appears" that the .308 is a tad better up to 500 yards but can't compete with the 06 at 1,000 yards.

No they do compete well at 1000 yards. The difference is a bit more energy and a slightly flatter trajectory with the 06. But at that range you are arcing them in anyways. Accuracy wise they are about the same. The reason you don't see the 06 in those comps is not because it can't hold it's own but simply because the 308 has gained a loyal following among modern shooters and because some comps dont even allow the 06 anymore. This is due to the 06 replacement by the military in the 50s. As a result millions of rounds were manufactured and more readily avail to rec shooters. More guns were chambered in it for competition purposes. Ex military who used the 308 preferred it because its what they used in combat so they took it to the range. Many shooters have a fascination with whatever the military uses. That seems to be the trend despite the fact that there are much flatter shooting cartridges out there.

50 years from now competitive shooters will most likely be looking back and saying I can't believe we used to compete with 308. There is a reason the military is now phasing it out of use. It will most likely be totally phased out within many of our lifetimes. Then shooters will start adapting to the new round. With time comes change. Some people can adapt to that where others cannot. Once upon a time 45-70s, 90s, 120s and 50-90,s were the rounds of choice for long range comps. My grandfather speaks of the time when he switched to the 30-06

What load combinations are you looking at, both of those are light if your using 150's or 165's.

This is still being debated? Here's how it goes... You find an article defending what you prefer and I find one defending what I prefer, add a few comments and then repeat.

Never mind,this is entertaining. Keep it going!

This has probably been cussed and discussed quite often. I have seen reputable shooters here recommend a .308. I know that a 30-06 has a larger variety of factory made ammo.

So why would anybody recommend a .308 over a 30-06? What will a .308 do that a 30-06 won't?

Ford-Chevy.

I like the flexibility of the .30-06. If you intend to split pubes at 800 meters, maybe there is some math somewhere that says the .308 is a better cartridge for you, but if you intend to kill a variety of animals on the North American continent with factory ammunition (or want the flexibility to kill all of 'em), I don't see that the ".30-06 short" conveys much tangible advantage apart from an almost negligible reduction in recoil (and if you feel recoil when you're hunting you're either toting a .338-.378 Weatherby or you need to get your adrenals checked).

If you're just looking to kill stuff South of Canada, what's the difference?

If you're just looking to kill stuff South of Amarillo, neither of the two really does anything that a .243 Winchester won't do just as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_GjFMzVT7c

Pics of said Whitworth?

Agreed.

Ford-Chevy.

I like the flexibility of the .30-06. If you intend to split pubes at 800 meters, maybe there is some math somewhere that says the .308 is a better cartridge for you, but if you intend to kill a variety of animals on the North American continent with factory ammunition (or want the flexibility to kill all of 'em), I don't see that the ".30-06 short" conveys much tangible advantage apart from an almost negligible reduction in recoil (and if you feel recoil when you're hunting you're either toting a .338-.378 Weatherby or you need to get your adrenals checked).

If you're just looking to kill stuff South of Canada, what's the difference?

If you're just looking to kill stuff South of Amarillo, neither of the two really does anything that a .243 Winchester won't do just as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_GjFMzVT7c

Never dwell on which is better.

A true rifle looney will own a .30-06 AND a .308 AND a .243 (and probably multiple rifles for each). Such variety provides hours of tinkering, reloading, chronographing, and shooting pleasure.

Hunting is just the icing on the cake.

Never dwell on which is better.

A true rifle looney will own a .30-06 AND a .308 AND a .243 (and probably multiple rifles for each). Such variety provides hours of tinkering, reloading, chronographing, and shooting pleasure.

Hunting is just the icing on the cake.

X2

But I still prefer the 308s knockdown power, and I'll say it again "I've never shot a 30-06" so I can really compare knockdown power besides the ballistics.

X2

But I still prefer the 308s knockdown power, and I'll say it again "I've never shot a 30-06" so I can really compare knockdown power besides the ballistics.

Hereinabove, one finds truth.

Yes, but I was referring to the 243. What are you trying to say a 308 wont knock down deer? I've never, ever seen a deer run from a shoulder shot with the 308. Never. Period. If that isn't "knock down" power then what is? It literally knocks the deer down off his feet onto his belly or side, usually side. The deer does not fly off its feet, it's simply knocked down. Don't over complicate things. What kind of bullets do you use gbeard?

Just playing devil's advocate, but I broke a big bodied 8 point down with a 100 grain .243 when I was eleven. Never took a step.

It's a simple answer. The '06 can push the exact same .308 bullet about 150 to 200 fps faster than a 308 Win. More speed equals more energy, less drop and less wind drift. More speed also means more recoil. Simple.

John Taylor, the old African hunter and writer, invented an arbitrary cartridge ranking that he called "knock-out" power. The fact that it had no basis in science and physics bothered him little.

Maybe it's time that someone here on the THF should rank cartridges according to "knock-down" ability. A working knowledge of momentum, kinetic energy, and terminal ballistics need not be a prerequisite. However, the ability to shout loudly might come in handy.....

John Taylor, the old African hunter and writer, invented an arbitrary cartridge ranking that he called "knock-out" power. The fact that it had no basis in science and physics bothered him little.

Maybe it's time that someone here on the THF should rank cartridges according to "knock-down" ability. A working knowledge of momentum, kinetic energy, and terminal ballistics need not be a prerequisite. However, the ability to shout loudly might come in handy.....

We will possibly debate MV when it's done

Yeah, and when we finish that one we can argue about whether or not "energy" kills. Might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Is there anything more pointless?

I agree with that. I think a heavy arrow from a heavy bow that would be perfectly adequate for moose or bear would have about 40 foot pounds.

someone will come along and tell us arrows kill differently than bullets.

It's a simple answer. The '06 can push the exact same .308 bullet about 150 to 200 fps faster than a 308 Win. More speed equals more energy, less drop and less wind drift. More speed also means more recoil. Simple.

The main reason the 06 is sitting behind the 308 in competition shooting is because the event was started by men and has evolved into girls and sissies.

The 30-06 is still King in the hunting rhelm.

Or maybe they smartened up? You really don't see any "long range" 30-06s. And I'm sure it's not for recoil. 300 wm, more of a long range gun then either of the guns were talking about. And I'm sure it kicks like a mule, 416 rigby, bigger bullet and at 300 yards, the same velocity as a 30-06. Some bullets are faster yes, and some are slower. But if the 416 rigby was such a good gun, then it would Be custom reloaded, and ammo wouldn't be $200 a box. How is the 30-06 better than the 300 wm? I still fail to see how the 30-06 is better than the 308.

"it just is"

What if I said the 308 is better because

"it just is"

308 can do the same thing all day long brother

"it just is"

What if I said the 308 is better because

"it just is"

308 can do the same thing all day long brother