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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: cmc]
#3942310
01/11/13 09:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 584
00possum
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 584 |
If you can shoot a bottle cap at 60 yards with a 40lb bow then you can hit a deer right below the chin at that far. Which means no air, blood, or spine. DRT. But I don't recommend it. What bcranch said is good advice. I don't see a reason to do it, it's kinda like using a 338 Lapua for deer.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: cmc]
#3942361
01/11/13 10:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882 |
From Dr Ashby's article "Given two arrows of equal momentum, but with one deriving a greater portion of its momentum from mass than the other, the heavier arrow will change velocity (decelerate) at a slower rate as it passes through the tissues. In other words, the heavier arrow will retain a higher percentage of its impact velocity at any given time period during its passage through the animal’s tissues, thus it also retains a higher momentum at any given point during the time required for the arrow to penetrate."
So two arrows with the same KE but arriving at that KE from different ways, one with more mass and one with more speed will likely not penetrate the same distance. I think my definition of KE was not right. If you look at the math behind KE you see it equals mass x velocity (squared).... speed is the biggest factor, thus why its squared...also why PO Ackely was able to make a 22-250 out penetrate 30 cals. Penatration has to do more with how the arrow and broad loose its momentum. Things like shaft size, cutting surface, cutting diameter, sharpness..etc. how it drags through the median it being shot through Every bow has a sweet spot were the gain in KE is insignificant as you add weight which decreases speed
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: 00possum]
#3942376
01/11/13 10:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882 |
If you can shoot a bottle cap at 60 yards with a 40lb bow then you can hit a deer right below the chin at that far. Which means no air, blood, or spine. DRT. But I don't recommend it. What bcranch said is good advice. I don't see a reason to do it, it's kinda like using a 338 Lapua for deer. No you can't!!!!!!..........now if you can hit a continuely moving bottle cap at 60yards regardless if it drops six inches at the shot then knock your self out.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3942556
01/11/13 11:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,857
cmc
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,857 |
Hey BOBO, all things being equal, broadhead, shaft size, and resistance on arrow, wouldn't the heavier arrow take longer to stop even if the KE is the same? You can come to the same KE with two different arrows 100 grains of weight apart now wether your FOC could be the same I don't know and this also is a major factor in penetration. I think I'm in over me head, I shoot a slow bow through stuff and know my bow well but physics hurt my brain.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: cmc]
#3943430
01/12/13 05:17 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243
OUTDOORSMAN81
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243 |
Overall I think eveybody is starting to use both momentum and KE as the same thing when they are not. They are Similar but two totally different things. Think of a golf ball and a ping-pong ball. They’re both about the same size but even if the ping-pong ball is launched twice as fast as the golf ball, the ping-pong ball does not have the weight to keep it in motion. It loses its energy much faster than the slower moving but heavier golf ball. Even at only ten feet away, which would you rather be hit with, a ping-pong ball moving at 300 feet per second or a golf ball moving at 150 feet per second? When you first launch the ping-pong ball, because the formula is slanted in favor of speed, it may very well have a higher kinetic energy rating. The golf ball however retains its energy because of its higher momentum factor and is able to deliver down range where it’s needed most. FireBeast: You are on the right path with the car and semi analogy. However it is not KE that enables the Semi to continue through houses or whatever it struck. It is the momentum/inertia. The two are similar but not the same. CMC: I am very happy to see you read the article. I hoped it you felt it was worth your while. You are on the right path with the above comment. Yes the heavier arrow would penetrate better than the light one. Why because it has more momentum and is harder to slow down. as far as the FOC comment that goes into the enhancements of penetrations article. http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/ATA_Handout_Text_Web.pdf But once again KE is not what dictates this. it is momentum. For example my wife shoots a 37-40lb bow with a 704+ gr arrow with over 29% FOC. Holds a good group and it will kill just fine. on another note KE is measured at the bow. In 15 years of bowhunting I have only shot an animal at almost point blank range a couple times. Heavier arrows maintain their speed better through out the distances. Try this simple test: Take two lightweight (300-400 grains) arrows; on one, install an 80 grain field point or, to prove a point, no point at all. Throw that arrow as far as you can. Now take the other arrow and install a 315 grain field point. Throw that arrow as far as you can. What happened? The lighter arrow, especially if you used no tip at all, wiggled and wagged, was very unstable, and didn’t travel nearly as far as the more stable, heavier tipped arrow.
"Don’t design a broadhead for when everything goes right, design a broadhead for when everything goes wrong." Dr. Ashby
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3943497
01/12/13 06:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243
OUTDOORSMAN81
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243 |
If you look at the math behind KE you see it equals mass x velocity (squared).... speed is the biggest factor, thus why its squared...also why PO Ackely was able to make a 22-250 out penetrate 30 cals.
Penatration has to do more with how the arrow and broad loose its momentum. Things like shaft size, cutting surface, cutting diameter, sharpness..etc. how it drags through the median it being shot through
Every bow has a sweet spot were the gain in KE is insignificant as you add weight which decreases speed
BOBO, In regards to your comment about shaft size, cutting surface, cutting diameter, sharpness..etc you are correct. those things play a vital roll. more can be found on that in Dr Ashby's article "Terminal arrow performance: Penetration enhancing factors" However in the statement about KE and 22-250 VS 30 cal compared to an archery set up you are comparing kumquats to Guavas. the only similarity these have is they are fruit. With your comparison to rifles VS Archery the only similarity is KE. In reality this is not even logical to try to compare. The reason is you have to look at the manner in which these two different weapons kill. Kinetic energy is vitally important for understanding how high velocity projectiles, such as bullets, act when striking a living target. In these instances, the high forward velocity and high rotational speed of the bullet do impart tremendous energy to living, moisture-laden tissue. As a bullet impacts, it has what we will call an "impulse effect". It imparts some of that high forward velocity to the tissues it contacts, immediately accelerating those tissues to the same speed as the projectile. These high speed tissues than move along the paths of least resistance, creating tremendous temporary wound channels and dramatic shock effect to the animal that was struck by the bullet. Likewise, the rotational speed of the bullet also literally "throws" tissues away from the bullet, just like the spin cycle in a washer "throws" water from the wet clothes in the tub. All this together falls into the general explanation for hydrostatic shock and cavitation. Arrows kill by hemorrhaging and not by delivering a tremendous shock to the quarry. In order to cause that hemorrhaging, our broadheads must penetrate the animal's vital area, cutting through organs and severing arteries, veins and capillaries to cause both internal and external bleeding, That penetration is best determined by understanding the relationship between momentum (inertia) and resistance (friction). Not to mention breaking through bones when they are struck. Momentum is a vital when bones or large bones are contacted. I dont know the last time my self ,or anybody I know, shot an animal and did not hit a bone. Be it rib bone, scapula, or leg bone. With what you stated a 22-250 will work on Cape Buffalo cause it penetrates deeper than a 30 cal? I would have to say no. Yes Ackely was able to achieve some better penetration with a 22-250 than a 30 cal. However, we are talking about bullets flying at 1000s of FPS and from what I know this was in a test medium, not in flesh where bone was contacted. Until we have a bow that can shoot our arrows well over a thousand FPS and kill due to cavitation and hydrostatic shock and not hemorrhaging, KE will not give a true depiction of penetration capability. In regards to your statement about a bow having a max weight that it can be effective at shooting, I am sure you are correct if you are ONLY basing everything on KE and nothing else. But as proven by traditional archers, studies, and science; momentum matters more in archery that KE. So that argument/statement does not hold water. In all my tests I have not found an arrow that is so heavy it decreased its lethality. With that being said, I now have a new project.
"Don’t design a broadhead for when everything goes right, design a broadhead for when everything goes wrong." Dr. Ashby
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: OUTDOORSMAN81]
#3943709
01/12/13 01:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,857
cmc
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,857 |
OUTDOORSMAN your right when I thought of KE I was thinking of it as momentum. Keep writing I'll read. I read TBM and have read a lot of Ashbys articles and interviews but that's when I was young and don't think I understood any of it. Now I reread it and it makes more sense and I've ran a lot of arrows through critters since then and its easier to understand when you can visualize the actual sceniario he's referring to.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: cmc]
#3943910
01/12/13 03:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,768
killemall
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,768 |
Good read outdoorsman, very good explanation of the difference
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: killemall]
#3943970
01/12/13 03:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,768
killemall
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,768 |
Outdoorsman, for a simple explanation I have heard it told this way, ke measures how hard something hits, momentum measures the energy,or mass ( idk) required to stop something. Is that in the ballpark?
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: killemall]
#3944170
01/12/13 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243
OUTDOORSMAN81
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243 |
Outdoorsman, for a simple explanation I have heard it told this way, ke measures how hard something hits, momentum measures the energy,or mass ( idk) required to stop something. Is that in the ballpark? Yes that is one of the most basic and easiest ways of looking at.
"Don’t design a broadhead for when everything goes right, design a broadhead for when everything goes wrong." Dr. Ashby
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: OUTDOORSMAN81]
#3944654
01/12/13 08:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882 |
If you look at the math behind KE you see it equals mass x velocity (squared).... speed is the biggest factor, thus why its squared...also why PO Ackely was able to make a 22-250 out penetrate 30 cals.
Penatration has to do more with how the arrow and broad loose its momentum. Things like shaft size, cutting surface, cutting diameter, sharpness..etc. how it drags through the median it being shot through
Every bow has a sweet spot were the gain in KE is insignificant as you add weight which decreases speed
BOBO, In regards to your comment about shaft size, cutting surface, cutting diameter, sharpness..etc you are correct. those things play a vital roll. more can be found on that in Dr Ashby's article "Terminal arrow performance: Penetration enhancing factors" However in the statement about KE and 22-250 VS 30 cal compared to an archery set up you are comparing kumquats to Guavas. the only similarity these have is they are fruit. With your comparison to rifles VS Archery the only similarity is KE. In reality this is not even logical to try to compare. The reason is you have to look at the manner in which these two different weapons kill. Kinetic energy is vitally important for understanding how high velocity projectiles, such as bullets, act when striking a living target. In these instances, the high forward velocity and high rotational speed of the bullet do impart tremendous energy to living, moisture-laden tissue. As a bullet impacts, it has what we will call an "impulse effect". It imparts some of that high forward velocity to the tissues it contacts, immediately accelerating those tissues to the same speed as the projectile. These high speed tissues than move along the paths of least resistance, creating tremendous temporary wound channels and dramatic shock effect to the animal that was struck by the bullet. Likewise, the rotational speed of the bullet also literally "throws" tissues away from the bullet, just like the spin cycle in a washer "throws" water from the wet clothes in the tub. All this together falls into the general explanation for hydrostatic shock and cavitation. Arrows kill by hemorrhaging and not by delivering a tremendous shock to the quarry. In order to cause that hemorrhaging, our broadheads must penetrate the animal's vital area, cutting through organs and severing arteries, veins and capillaries to cause both internal and external bleeding, That penetration is best determined by understanding the relationship between momentum (inertia) and resistance (friction). Not to mention breaking through bones when they are struck. Momentum is a vital when bones or large bones are contacted. I dont know the last time my self ,or anybody I know, shot an animal and did not hit a bone. Be it rib bone, scapula, or leg bone. With what you stated a 22-250 will work on Cape Buffalo cause it penetrates deeper than a 30 cal? I would have to say no. Yes Ackely was able to achieve some better penetration with a 22-250 than a 30 cal. However, we are talking about bullets flying at 1000s of FPS and from what I know this was in a test medium, not in flesh where bone was contacted. Until we have a bow that can shoot our arrows well over a thousand FPS and kill due to cavitation and hydrostatic shock and not hemorrhaging, KE will not give a true depiction of penetration capability. In regards to your statement about a bow having a max weight that it can be effective at shooting, I am sure you are correct if you are ONLY basing everything on KE and nothing else. But as proven by traditional archers, studies, and science; momentum matters more in archery that KE. So that argument/statement does not hold water. In all my tests I have not found an arrow that is so heavy it decreased its lethality. With that being said, I now have a new project. You are correct to a point...but KE is KE...the difference is how the KE is transfered. In guns its the bullet to the animal and how the bullet does it, and at what stages. KE in bows is how much is transfered to the arrow That is the difference in bullets vs broad/arrows. The KE is very important in bowhunting because it shows the efficancy on how a bow transfers the KE stored in its limbs to the arrow... Why an 80lb bow ten years ago was slower and transfered much less KE then todays 60lb bows. The higher the KE transfer in a bow the less relative broadhead design has to be because you can focus more on cutting surface and cutting diameter. As far as my reference to P.O Ackeley... bow, spear, bullet ect. The formulas for momentum is mass x velocity. And again ke is mass x velocity (squared) ...so velocity is the biggest factor when applied to both..therefore making it highly relevant
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3949993
01/14/13 06:37 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243
OUTDOORSMAN81
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 243 |
BOBO, I understand what you are saying about using KE as a way to show the efficiency of the modern bows V/S old bows. I think it is safe to say that we are not going to really agree on the rest of it. It looks like we both partially agree with eachother. I would debate and argue further but I dont feel like typing recaps of studies, physics classes, tests, etc... (besides it would probably bore everybody else) We are both basing our opinions on sound knowledge we learned first hand in college physics, Animal Sci/Veterinary training, and studies we have read combined with our personal experiences with large game, small game, years of tests, medical training, countless post-mortum analysis, etc... So the debate could go on for a long time. We are each entitled to our opinions. Who knows we could both be right and wrong and just looking at it in different ways.
I am really trying to understand some of what you stated and have some further questions. Primarily it is this arrow V/S that arrow type questions. But it is late so I will ask them later. Hope you had a good weekend
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: OUTDOORSMAN81]
#3953971
01/15/13 05:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 669
bowbuilder1971
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 669 |
My friends dad used to shoot a 90 pound Hoyt back when I was in my 20's and I pulled it back a couple of times. Was a hell of a pull and thought I was going to need a hernia operation after lol. He would brag how he could only use 1 pin and shoot from 10 to 50 yds with the bow. Well he never got any deer while hunting because he could not hold on a deer that long with the bow so he ended up using it only for 3d tournaments. I would go with what you are comfortable at holding if you are planning on hunting with it.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: bowbuilder1971]
#3960612
01/16/13 09:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211
crankn101
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: cmc]
#3960619
01/16/13 09:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063
Navasot
Hollywood
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Hollywood
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063 |
I pull 65lbs with a solo cam and have plenty more than enough punch....your gona tear your arm apart
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: crankn101]
#3960625
01/16/13 09:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063
Navasot
Hollywood
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Hollywood
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
Not outrageous....just out of your mind... no reason for it.... unless you just want to feel cool
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: Navasot]
#3960665
01/16/13 10:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211
crankn101
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
Not outrageous....just out of your mind... no reason for it.... unless you just want to feel cool Very liberal way of thinking for a hunting site. Just like there is no reason for a magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds...
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: Navasot]
#3960692
01/16/13 10:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,961
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,961 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
Not outrageous....just out of your mind... no reason for it.... unless you just want to feel cool I bet most people here couldn't pull 50 lbs sitting a bench with their feet in the air....who shoots like that? Nav, I shoot 72 and I'll be the first to admit, it makes me feel pretty cool
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: crankn101]
#3960793
01/16/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063
Navasot
Hollywood
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Hollywood
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
Not outrageous....just out of your mind... no reason for it.... unless you just want to feel cool Very liberal way of thinking for a hunting site. Just like there is no reason for a magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds... I dnt have a reason for it..... yes its still an option...if you wana look cool
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3960796
01/16/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063
Navasot
Hollywood
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Hollywood
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
Not outrageous....just out of your mind... no reason for it.... unless you just want to feel cool I bet most people here couldn't pull 50 lbs sitting a bench with their feet in the air....who shoots like that? Nav, I shoot 72 and I'll be the first to admit, it makes me feel pretty cool ^^ see
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: crankn101]
#3960805
01/16/13 10:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949 |
I love how people think its so outrageous to shoot only 10 pounds more than the normal hunter.
Sit on a bench with feet held in the air, if you can pull back 80 pounds without wiggling around its an acceptable weight for you.
Not outrageous....just out of your mind... no reason for it.... unless you just want to feel cool Very liberal way of thinking for a hunting site. Just like there is no reason for a magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds... I figure it is more like using a 300 ultra mag at 30 yards on a doe...it can be done, it will work, but there really isn't a reason for it.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: txshntr]
#3960843
01/16/13 10:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211
crankn101
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211 |
What about... Shoulder hit? Spine shot?
I too agree its not necessary in all situations but can be very beneficial in some. And for the record I shoot a 70lb bow with a 493 grain arrow.
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: crankn101]
#3960917
01/16/13 11:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063
Navasot
Hollywood
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Hollywood
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,063 |
I bet that sucker makes a thud when it hits something!
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Re: Heavy pound bows
[Re: crankn101]
#3961497
01/17/13 01:30 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211
crankn101
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 211 |
Ill post a link with some nasty carnage from heavy bows and big mechanicals.
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