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 A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
#394627
07/30/08 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Texas Dan
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Okay, here's a topic that's sure to create some discussion.
You go to the shooting range for some practice with that rifle you cleaned a month or two earlier and notice that first shot hits way off the mark. Your first thought is that something must have "bumped" your scope. You might even go so far as to make windage and/or elevation adjustments. Bad mistake. Most factory rifles will produce a "flyer" or two through a barrel that has been cleaned and oiled. Shoot just a few more rounds and you'll probably see the shots begin to tighten up.
Comments and/or explanations?
Last edited by Dan the Man; 07/30/08 04:41 PM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Texas Dan]
#394628
07/30/08 04:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,264
fowlplayr
Shenanigans Scorecard keeper
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Agree 100%. 
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: fowlplayr]
#394629
07/30/08 05:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Crazyhorse
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Hence the old term of
"Firing A Fouling Shot"
I think everyone has had the entire gamut of results by firing freshly cleaned barrels or dirty barrels.
Some rifles are just finicky, and some shooters are not as accurate, as the gun they are shooting is capable of.
I tend to fall into the dirty barrel group myself, it always seems like a clean barrel, on my guns at least, needs 2 to 5 shots run thru them to start tightening up the group. JMO.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#394630
07/30/08 05:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,203
Koenig
THF Trophy Hunter
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Isn't that why you use bore cleaner not oil?
 never trust a man that rents pigs....
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Koenig]
#394631
07/30/08 05:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Crazyhorse
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It all depends on the person and how they clean their gun.
When I clean my rifles, I use bore cleaner to get the barrel clean, but when I get thru doing that and before putting the gun up, I run a lightly oiled patch down the bore.
I have seen folks however, pull their rifle out of the case at the gun range and take a couple of patches with bore cleaner on them and swab out the barrel, then run a clean, dry patch down the bore, then set down and start firing a string.
Can or will an oiled bore produce the same results as a clean, dry bore?
Not to take the topic too far off course, but back when I was more involved in shooting muzzle loaders, I knew many folks that would clean the bore between shots, and do it religiously.
I am of the school of taking the rifle out of its case, regardless of the condition of the bore, cleaned and dry or lightly oiled, and if the first shot I fire goes just exactly where I want it, the gun goes back in the case.
Cleaning a gun does not hurt, but in some cases accuracy of the first few shots can be affected. JMO.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#394632
07/30/08 06:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Texas Dan
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Great comments and feedback.
I've found an initial shot fired at a 100 yard target can be as much as four inches off. While that might still produce a kill shot to the heart and lung area at that distance, wouldn't the impact point be off much more at twice that distance?
I ask the question with thoughts of the hunter who cleans his gun before the season opener after many trips to the range during the off season, then heads to the woods expecting that first shot to be a good one.
And of course, let's not forget those who never make off season trips to the range and clean their guns right before the opener.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Texas Dan]
#394634
07/30/08 08:55 PM
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Joined: May 2006
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RICK O'SHAY
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I CLEAN MY GUNS ONCE A YEAR WHEITHER THEY NEED IT OR NOT AND THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO SHOOT JUST FINE.
ACTUALLY I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, WHEN I GO TO THE RANGE WITH A CLEAN GUN IT ALWAYS SEEMS OFF. AFTER ABOUT 6 SHOTS IT'S SHOOTING BETTER AGAIN. IT TOOK ME A FEW YEARS AND A FEW BOXES OF AMMO TO FIGURE IT OUT. I MOSTLY JUST WIPE THEM DOWN AFTER EACH OUTING.
DISCLAIMER
ATTENTION: Your decision should NEVER be based SOLELY upon my advice, recomendation, or opinion.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: RICK O'SHAY]
#394635
07/31/08 12:38 AM
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Kawabuggy
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I agree that the 1st shot with a cleaned/oiled barrel in my guns is NOT as accurate as the next shot. I have been pondering this myself and have thought that maybe before I go hunting, I should run a dry patch through the bore to get out the excess oil. I am worried about that 1st shot at a trophy being a flier. I think the best course of action would be after sighting in at the range & before hunting I just won't clean the barrel.
This begs another question, if an oiled bore can cause a flier, what about the new moly coated bullets? Since the moly coating is a form of lubrication for the barrel-what effect will that have on accuracy? Don't mean to take the post of course, but just one more thought on the lubed/oiled barrel scenario.
A hog is nothing more than a bullet receptacle.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Kawabuggy]
#394636
07/31/08 02:51 AM
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Texas Dan
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Quote:
I agree that the 1st shot with a cleaned/oiled barrel in my guns is NOT as accurate as the next shot. I have been pondering this myself and have thought that maybe before I go hunting, I should run a dry patch through the bore to get out the excess oil. I am worried about that 1st shot at a trophy being a flier. I think the best course of action would be after sighting in at the range & before hunting I just won't clean the barrel.
This begs another question, if an oiled bore can cause a flier, what about the new moly coated bullets? Since the moly coating is a form of lubrication for the barrel-what effect will that have on accuracy? Don't mean to take the post of course, but just one more thought on the lubed/oiled barrel scenario.
My understanding is that some fouling of the barrel is necessary to correct/fill the imperfections that are common to any factory barrel. A good cleaning with a good copper solvent will remove most of this fouling, leaving only the imperfections behind. Once you fire two or three shots, the fouling is again such that bullets from subsequent shots carry a more consistent spin and velocity as they travel the length of the barrel. It does seem to make sense when you think about it.
I also understand there are gunsmiths who specialize in removing these imperfections by various polishing methods. Once this has been done, you'll have a gun which much greater consistency.
And let's not forget those who say that the long-term accuracy of any factory rifle will be better ensured by proper break-in practices. Based on what I've read on the subject, most describe this as firing a shot and then cleaning the barrel several times in repetition until production imperfections have worn away. IMO, this sounds very similar to the concept of breaking in a new engine by allowing the rod bearings to "bed" with the crankshaft.
This is not to say that everything I've shared here is fact but only what I've read from various sources and shared here for the benefit of discussion.
Last edited by Dan the Man; 07/31/08 03:05 AM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Texas Dan]
#394637
07/31/08 03:29 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,343
BMD
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Custom Barrels are the way to go.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: BMD]
#394638
08/01/08 01:19 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
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oulufinn
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I like a shot or five to settle down even custom barrels. Clean, oiled bore shots can be off a little sometimes.
NRA Life Member
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: oulufinn]
#394639
08/01/08 03:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
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sig226fan (Rguns.com)
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From a LE/military viewpoint...I have to know where the first shot is going, period. Clean, cold bore shot. I am more worried about what the barrel does when it heats than what it does clean. When I say a light coat of oil, it's very very very light...
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#394640
08/01/08 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 309
richbrismith
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I'm sooooo glad someone posted this, and I thought I was losing my mind. This question has had me in turmoil for years- now I can rest at ease and know what the problem is. Now is anohter question to add to it- how long do you wait between shots to let the barrel cool to keep consistancy with accuracy? Not to be off subject of course
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: richbrismith]
#394641
08/01/08 12:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
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psycho0819
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I always foul the barrell with at least two rounds before I expect optimum accuracy.
I shoot my guns all year long, doing load testing and just shooting for fun. Always cleaning at regular intervals. But before any hunting trip, or season, I will thoroughly clean my rifles, then shoot a few fouler shots, then shoot one group to verify accuracy. Then I refuse to clean the bore until I'm in a situation where I can shoot the necessary foulers, and five shot group to prove accuracy once again.
Time between shots needed?????
That is a very subjective question. It depends on a number of factors. Ambient temp, barrel weight, caliber, bedding, free-floated barrel (or not). All can be a factor.
On my heavy barrels, I shoot five round groups, one shot right after the other with just enough time between to place a well aimed shot.
On sporter weight barrels, I shoot three shot groups, and like above, with just enough time between them to place a well aimed shot.
Even with a heavy barrel, a magnum round can generate enough heat to change the POI in less than three rounds (sometimes). So five shot groups with these rifles are not always the best judge of accuracy.
Jay
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction.
The end of the world began the day it was created, and life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Texas Dan]
#394642
08/01/08 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
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exoticbob
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the last 3 guns i have broken in shot outstanding when cleaned. i break in my guns by cleaning after every shot for the first 20 rounds, then its every 2-3 shots. i have seen more accuracy problems from fouled barrels and not from cold cleaned barrels. also, imo, flinching is the culprit for the first shot being off. it takes a shot or 2 to settle down behind the gun and get real comfortable with it.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: exoticbob]
#394643
08/01/08 01:15 PM
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sig226fan (Rguns.com)
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Quote:
the last 3 guns i have broken in shot outstanding when cleaned. i break in my guns by cleaning after every shot for the first 20 rounds, then its every 2-3 shots. i have seen more accuracy problems from fouled barrels and not from cold cleaned barrels. also, imo, flinching is the culprit for the first shot being off. it takes a shot or 2 to settle down behind the gun and get real comfortable with it.
Well said Sir. Practice, Practice, Practice. I am going to shoot now.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#394644
08/04/08 08:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Brandon123
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The first shot though a cleaned barrel is always normally off because it hydraplanes sort of like a car on water. Once the newness is gone, all should return to normal...
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Brandon123]
#394645
08/05/08 05:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
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FinFowlAndWhitetail
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i just read an article on this last night and what i got from it was while sighting in takes several shots you are actually sighting in with a dirty barrel. when you clean/lube the barrel after sighting in the next shot (opening morning) you have less resistance or friction in your barrel due to the lube you are going to sling your bullet most likely high so i would say run a few dry patches through your barrel and maybe a round or two before risking that opening morning monster miss or bad shot placement this article was written by peter capstick a professional hunter on 5 different continents i would imagine he knows his stuff. another thing to think about that was also in the article is when sighting in dont put your sandbags under your barrel but under the forestock when put under the barrel it lifts the natural droop of your barrel resulting in sighting in high causing your shot at game with gun rested on the forestock by your hand or blind window or whatever it might be you will shoot low. never actually seen anyone sandbag under barrel but apparently he had
just my 2 cents
Everyone should have something to believe in, I believe I will go hunting
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: FinFowlAndWhitetail]
#394646
08/05/08 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Texas Dan
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Quote:
another thing to think about that was also in the article is when sighting in dont put your sandbags under your barrel but under the forestock when put under the barrel it lifts the natural droop of your barrel resulting in sighting in high causing your shot at game with gun rested on the forestock by your hand or blind window or whatever it might be you will shoot low.
I once read that resting the barrel against any object will also alter the shock waves that travel along the barrel so that the trajectory of the bullet is altered as well. And while this mistake is probably made most often when using a bottom rest, it also applies when using a side rest.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#394647
08/05/08 10:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Big Orn
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10-4 on the "fouling shot" 
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Big Orn]
#394648
08/06/08 01:55 AM
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sig226fan (Rguns.com)
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Wow. I feel like a , hummm, a hmmm, minority.
My opinion, if it's shooting vastly different after a few rounds, I wouldn't like it. I want the first one DFM, from the clean cold bore. I respect you guys alot, but can't agree with the trend here.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#394649
08/06/08 05:13 AM
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Posts: 1,450
TexasTransplant
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If your barrel is wet, and it doesn't matter what it's wet with, the liquid will not be able to move as fast as the bullet. The bullet meets more resistance than contemplated in the design of the round and the rifling. Chamber/barrel pressures are higher than specified, and the bullet may even distort as it travels down the barrel as it tries to shove it's way past the fluids.
That's the explanation that was given to me by a Vietnam era armorer who was a real student of the game.
I've tested this by firing out of freshly oiled barrels and dry-patched barrels and you can tell a difference both in the recoil and accuracy.
I clean, dry patch, soggy oil patch, dry patch again prior to storage. You can't get all the oil out, anyway. No problems on the first shot with this procedure.
 She was only a whiskey maker, but he loved her still.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: Texas Dan]
#394650
08/06/08 05:18 AM
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TexasTransplant
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Quote:
I once read that resting the barrel against any object will also alter the shock waves that travel along the barrel so that the trajectory of the bullet is altered as well. And while this mistake is probably made most often when using a bottom rest, it also applies when using a side rest.
If your weapon is designed with a floating barrel, then the barrel should float, which is a weird, industry way of saying the barrel shouldn't be touching anything but the receiver. People who've looked deeply into this know that this is not 100% true in all theories or for all weapons that have a so-called floating barrel. For instance, some old-hand tuners believe that a model 70 shoots better with a dry business card wedged between the forestock and the barrel. If your weapon has a barrel band (e.g., 10/.22), resting on the barrel is not going to be as big a deal although it's still not considered best practice.
She was only a whiskey maker, but he loved her still.
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Re: A clean gun doesn't shoot straight
[Re: TexasTransplant]
#394651
08/06/08 11:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
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sig226fan (Rguns.com)
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Quote:
If your barrel is wet, and it doesn't matter what it's wet with, the liquid will not be able to move as fast as the bullet. The bullet meets more resistance than contemplated in the design of the round and the rifling. Chamber/barrel pressures are higher than specified, and the bullet may even distort as it travels down the barrel as it tries to shove it's way past the fluids.
That's the explanation that was given to me by a Vietnam era armorer who was a real student of the game.
I've tested this by firing out of freshly oiled barrels and dry-patched barrels and you can tell a difference both in the recoil and accuracy.
I clean, dry patch, soggy oil patch, dry patch again prior to storage. You can't get all the oil out, anyway. No problems on the first shot with this procedure.
Exactly....well said.
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