Yep, NYPD did get the bad guy this time, but they did wound 9 innocent bystanders. BTW they were the only ones with high capacity magazines and supposively "trained." Saw the video on the shooting. An abysmal performance by NY's finest. Where is Tom Selleck when you need him?

NYPD's firearms training is notoriously lacking. Heck, their in-service training is horrible in general. Some of the most under-trained officers in the country. They get through the academy and then they're done.

Exactly my point and something that the liberal left, especially the popular media either ignores or doesn't know. Some articles are quoting the NYPD with a hit rate of 34% but the reality shows a hit rate that has plummeted over the years to well below 20%. Some of the other facts that media ignores is that blue on blue shootings don't happen very often in civilian defense shooting. Of course the left wants to limit access to weapons, especially semi-autos. These guys fired 16 shots with reportedly only two hits on the bad guy, yet still managed to wound 9 innocent bystanders.

If I recall the stats from when I took my CHL class a few years ago, in the state of Texas a police officer is 10x more likely to shoot an innocent bystander than a CHL holder is. Something about accountability... Cops always get two weeks paid vacation ("two week suspension with pay") for punishment of B$ like this. They should be tried in criminal court for negligent assault or whatever crime I would have been tried with if that happened to me in Texas.

I would be careful of the degrading comments on the LEO's. Maybe they aren't expert marksman under fire but they are out there every day putting it on the line for us.

No one's degrading LEO's only putting into perspective the hit ratio and the training. The left would have you believe that LEO's ( We're picking on NY for Christ's sake ) are expert marksman and since they are expert and do so poorly that civilians shouldn't even have a handgun. Money says Land Pirate was playing with a 357 magnum with snap caps in the crib, while the average NYPD probably never saw a Glock till he hit the academy.

No lack of respect for LEOs here. I certainly didn't choose to dedicate my professional life to protecting others. In my eyes, this is a simple matter of motivational factors - like economics. If you provide subsidies for something, you get more of it. Alternatively, if you tax something, you get less of it.

In this case, if your punishment for stray bullets hitting innocent bystanders is being tried for the crime that you committed (regardless of who you are), then you get much less of it. If, on the other hand, you are "punished" with two weeks of paid "suspension," then you get more of it.

Watch the video, there are people EVERWHERE, and the police seem like they were not prepared for the guy to turn and draw (didn't get off a shot though). I try to think what "I" would have done. I have yet to see someone with some real training tell me what "should have happend."

The reports are all contradictory, but they bad guy was hit 6 or 7 times with a total of 16 shots fired by police. Not a great hit percentage, but better than average in shootings. 3 people where hit with bullets, and the other 6 where hit with fragments (concrete/richochetes).

Yes, the media made it out like some mass shooting. The bad guy had an 8 round magazine with only a couple rounds left (had a reload in his breifcase 1911??) They are biased, what else is new. Mayor Loser made a speech that blames guns for the shooting. What else is new. He is another dirtbag who runs a crime-ridden city. Go figure.

If you don't know what you're saying and don't have any stats to back it up, please don't post up the first thing that pops in your head.

First, every shooting by a cop is going to reviewed by his department, his admin, the DA, the Grand Jury and if there's criminal wrong doing, he'll face a trial, judge and jury.

Second, officers involved in a shooting, justified or not, are going to be placed on paid leave while the investigation takes place. Why paid leave? If he was justified why would you punish him? The investigation will determine if he was justified. Punishment will come after that.

Thirdly, right, wrong or indifferent every cop used in a deadly use of force will face a long, drawn out civil law suit.

If a cop inadvertently kills an innocent it is doubtful that he'll work in LE again, he will have his pants sued off of him and he very well may end up in jail.

The overriding and determining factor with this is the same as any other crime: Intent. Did the officer intentionally and knowingly shoot the innocent. Culpable mental state plays a role in any prosecution regardless of who is accused.

Now, back to the original topic. I read a training report somewhere that showed that the NYPD has one of the lowest training hours in the country. They also have the lowest or one of the lowest hits-to-shots-fired ratios in the country.

Glaringly obvious that they have huge training needs. Does or should the indiviual officer bear this burden alone or should the department bear some, most or all of this deficiency?

Between 1998 and 2006 the hit ratio for NYPD was 18%. If you look at the hit ratio it has been steadily declining for years. You're right, about the Dept bearing the responsiblity. The biannual qualifications are a joke, just plain target shooting without a lick of tactical training. I shoot twice as much per session doing drills. Combined with stuff like the so called NY trigger and an antigun culture you can see why they are so bad. BTW since Depts adopted the so called "Modern Method" based upon Jeff Coopers teachings most PD's hit ratios have plummeted. ( sorry had to get my shot in on Cooper)

As far as this shooting the results are really yet to be seen. Initially it was only two hits. Recent reports state 5 head wounds and one graze to the chest which doesn't make a lick of sense. Tactically this shouldn't have taken more than 6 shots with two officers firing.

Motivation can be accomplished through positive reinforcement as well as negative reinforcement. Instead of jailing cops for every innocent bystander they hit, why not pay them $50K for every dirtbag they put one in. According to your theory, that would solve the problem.

This is NOT what this thread is about. It's about the liberal mantra that says that YOU as an average citizen can't defend yourself because if the NYPD can't shoot well and that you must be be a blithering moron who should just put the barrel in his mouth and pull the trigger. THIS is what the liberal media is spouting right now. It's not about some guy with a badge doing his job and sometimes doing it badly because his training sucks big time. It's time to know the enemy KC. The liberal left really thinks that if someone invades your home that YOU are going to turn into a blithering bag of jelly more likely to shoot himself and his family then terminate the attack. Somehow I just don't think that's you KC.

I was being a bit absurd to show the absurdity in Aggie's post. I may turn into a quivering pile of something, but there will be rounds going downrange if you break into my home.

For all you Police critics out there who think you can do a better job sign up for the test. Pass it and all the background checks and psych and lie detector exams, and go through the academy. Then go to work every day and deal with the scum of the earth and do your best to help people and try not to get beaten up, killed, or hit by a car.

If you think you are so superior and know so much more... sign up and do the job. Unless you are a Police Officer you have no idea what they go through every day. It's not an episode of Cops and they don't sit around looking to hassle people or write a bunch of tickets. Most of them answer calls for service and have sworn an oath to protect the same citizens that want to call them names and attack them when things don't go their way.

Or if you still think they do such a terrible job, don't call them.

Again, Alan I suggest you reread the posts. It's not about criticism of LEO as a general statement it's about the Empire State Shooting and how it got transformed into a mass shooting. I suggest you look at some of the headline articles demanding "gun control" because of this. If there is any criticism of LEO it lies within the NYPD which btw is not in Texas.

1) The "mass shooting effect" was caused by NYPD. They are the ones who hit the bystanders. The bad guy only shot at one person and that was his intended victim.

2) The media has sought to exploit the "mass shooting" by calling for more gun control. One of their statements is that if LEO is so well trained and this happens, the average Joe has no business with a handgun.

3) NYPD shot at this guy 16 times at close range and still managed to injure 9 people. NYPD has a documented poor performance in hit ratios at 18% and more than a few spray and pray incidents involving multiple officers and large numbers of shots. Nevertheless the media ignores the fact that in civilian self defense shootings blue on blue events like what happens in NYC is a relatively rare event.

4) NYC and especially it's mayor is notorious for anti-gun activity. I'd suggest you do a google search on "hizzoner" Mike Bloomberg if you don't believe me.

BTW Alan the average IDPA or IPSC competitor would blow doors on just about any average LEO except for SWAT in matches. The Fletci trained people would also be an exception.

This topic is already being discussed in the Bunker.

This whole post is nothing but bs and you have no clue what your talking about.

Not everyone has access to the Bunker. Meanwhile another incident occured in Midtown where a knife wielding guy was shot at 12 times by NYPD. No word on the hits on that one.

Your talking about shooting paper! LMMFAO! Take a few rounds under the chin and try to shoot that same paper. Yes this was a bad deal and the officers that are involved will have to own up to it and be held accountable. But I read that only one person was hit with a friendly round and the rest was concrete and frag....

Soooo that was too many rounds?

When the paper shoots back it's a game changer, thats when the match shooter will chit and run.

At the risk of getting flamed here, I'll take a shot at the Dallas cops (AKA Keystone cops):

re: Deanna Cook, "When seconds count, the (Dallas) police are only HOURS away."

And yes, I think I could do a better job than Police Chief David Brown.... Now, go ahead and flame away.

Could this be because police officers are 10x more likely to be involved in a shooting than the average CHL holder? It has nothing to do with accountability.

Careful you addressing a CHL holder, amazing how many think their Peace Officers and could do a much better job.