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 Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: deerfeeder]
#336269
03/30/08 06:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
dayton
Light Foot
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Light Foot
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Posts: 22 |
Whne cottonseed is fed durin the spring time for the nutrient value of the product and not year round there is not an adverse effect on the animal. The gossypol in cottonseed can be harmful if exposure is prolonged but usin this instead of protein feeds is not harmful if done only 2 or 3 months out of the year
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: dayton]
#336270
04/01/08 03:18 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,687
txbobcat
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Deerfeeder...what feed company do you work for???
Also been feeding deer FREE CHOICE as much as they can eat on free range approx 14,500 acres for over 8 years with no problems. The published studies are for penned deer eating nothing but cottonseed. Deer with varied diets are not affected.
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: txbobcat]
#336271
04/01/08 02:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 146
olinecoach
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 146 |
Bobcat how have you fed it? Pill it in piles or what. Also was this delinter seed or straight gin run seed? Thanks
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: olinecoach]
#336272
04/01/08 04:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,287
deerfeeder
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I don't work for a feed comapany. I feed other people's deer. For me to do something, even with good intentions, that is possibly harmful to those deer is wrong for me. As far as I know there is only one major feed company that does not use cottonseed in their formula in the southern part of Texas. That is Lyssy & Eckels in Poth. The other large companies use cottonseed as part of their protein pellets, because it is cheaper. The only thing that allows me to rationalize using them is the amount of cottonseed and or the pellets in a ton of protein falls below the amount listed as dangerous for the animals. There is another company in Wisconsin, Bio-Tech Research who will not use cottonseed either, but that is not applicable to us down here. The published reports are done on penned deer because that is the only way you can measure results. I've stated time and again, I've seen deer on literally mountains of whole cottonseed. But the difference has always been that where I've seen this whole cottonseed is only available for about 3 months out of the year. What everybody here with low fence places is saying is "I haven't noticed anything." Great, that's just your eyebalss telling you. How do you really measure that your bucks aren't putting all they can on their heads because of gossypol? How do you measure that the buck you really want to reproduce isn't reproducing the way he should? How do you know that dead deer you found (or maybe didn't find) didn't die from an overdose of gossypol instead of parasites or anthrax or something else we all take for granted? I don't have satisfactory answers for these questions and relie on what has been proven by people with credentials to back up what they are saying. I learned a long time ago not to do the, " I wouldn't have seen it with my own eyes if I wouldn't have believed it." thing which most of us fall victum to regularily. The other thing I have stated over and over again on this forum is that cow, sheep and goats are NOT deer. Yes, they are ruminants, but it pretty much stops there. The digestive system of a deer is much smaller than any of the others. I suspect, that with fuel prices where they are, protein prices going through the roof a lot of people are looking for the cheapest way out. Whole cottonseed, IMO, could cost a whole lot more than dollars. I've also posted on the forum that there is a company up in Rowena, between San Angelo and Winters, that actually makes a pellet out of cottonseed if you are of a mind to buy some. All I'm trying to do is inform. What you do with the information is entirely up to you. 
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: deerfeeder]
#336273
04/01/08 04:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,288
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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Posts: 63,288 |
Quote:
The other thing I have stated over and over again on this forum is that cow, sheep and goats are NOT deer. Yes, they are ruminants, but it pretty much stops there. The digestive system of a deer is much smaller than any of the others.
Ruminants are ruminants and you have to compare apples to apples. Deer digestive system is smaller then a cows, so is thier food intake. The avg deer in texas is 100lbs and eats 6-8 pounds of food a day, the average cow is 1000 lbs and eats 65-85 pounds of food a day. Therefore a deer eats 6-8% of thier body weight and a cow its 6.5-8.5% of their body weight. Thier is very little differance in the digestive systems, the only differance is their preffered forage.
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: olinecoach]
#336274
04/01/08 08:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,687
txbobcat
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Quote:
Bobcat how have you fed it? Pill it in piles or what. Also was this delinter seed or straight gin run seed? Thanks
I feed straight run...make a circle "feeder" out of wire and tpost it down...then fill the wire...deer eat out of the sides. Or you can feed in troughs.
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: deerfeeder]
#336275
04/01/08 08:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,687
txbobcat
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Quote:
I don't work for a feed comapany. I feed other people's deer. For me to do something, even with good intentions, that is possibly harmful to those deer is wrong for me.
As far as I know there is only one major feed company that does not use cottonseed in their formula in the southern part of Texas. That is Lyssy & Eckels in Poth. The other large companies use cottonseed as part of their protein pellets, because it is cheaper. The only thing that allows me to rationalize using them is the amount of cottonseed and or the pellets in a ton of protein falls below the amount listed as dangerous for the animals.
There is another company in Wisconsin, Bio-Tech Research who will not use cottonseed either, but that is not applicable to us down here.
The published reports are done on penned deer because that is the only way you can measure results. I've stated time and again, I've seen deer on literally mountains of whole cottonseed. But the difference has always been that where I've seen this whole cottonseed is only available for about 3 months out of the year.
What everybody here with low fence places is saying is "I haven't noticed anything." Great, that's just your eyebalss telling you. How do you really measure that your bucks aren't putting all they can on their heads because of gossypol? How do you measure that the buck you really want to reproduce isn't reproducing the way he should? How do you know that dead deer you found (or maybe didn't find) didn't die from an overdose of gossypol instead of parasites or anthrax or something else we all take for granted? I don't have satisfactory answers for these questions and relie on what has been proven by people with credentials to back up what they are saying. I learned a long time ago not to do the, " I wouldn't have seen it with my own eyes if I wouldn't have believed it." thing which most of us fall victum to regularily.
The other thing I have stated over and over again on this forum is that cow, sheep and goats are NOT deer. Yes, they are ruminants, but it pretty much stops there. The digestive system of a deer is much smaller than any of the others.
I suspect, that with fuel prices where they are, protein prices going through the roof a lot of people are looking for the cheapest way out. Whole cottonseed, IMO, could cost a whole lot more than dollars.
I've also posted on the forum that there is a company up in Rowena, between San Angelo and Winters, that actually makes a pellet out of cottonseed if you are of a mind to buy some.
All I'm trying to do is inform. What you do with the information is entirely up to you.
All the info you have is derived from the same "scare" type tactic info that feed companies started using about 5-6 years ago when feed really jumped in prices and folks started feeding straight cottonseed. A feed salesman somewhere has really got you on the hook. My in the field experience is probably as extensive as anyones and I have had no repurcussions from feeding cottonseed. According to calculations derived from some of the penned deer studies (now were talking cottonseed ONLY diets) a whitetail in the wild would have to consume anywhere from 1.9 to 4 lbs of cottonseed per day AVERAGE over the year to cause any noticeable side effects. What do you think the normal daily intake is for protein and cottonseed in a free range whitetail herd???? Well see if you know your deer feeding numbers here.
If you really want to get down to feeding in general...most "feed" programs in Texas are a waste of time and money compared to results produced from such programs. Yes I said it!!! Most ranches do not have enough feeders or put out enough feed to make any sizeable impact on overall population improvement or buck antler growth. Now if you are in starving conditions or penned conditions this statement would not apply. People spending more money and time on population and herd managment would have a much larger return than any half [censored] feed program.
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: txbobcat]
#336276
04/01/08 10:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,287
deerfeeder
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Guys, I didn't do the studies, I didn't write them up, and I didn't publish them. I didn't write the Merick vet manual either. If it is scare tactics from the feed companies then why in the world are all that I know of, except Lyssy & Eckels, using cottonseed in their formulas for pellets? I haven't seen the Cotton Council jump out with a scientific, repeatable study saying gossypol won't hurt deer. If the feed companies scare tactics are so damaging why are the cotton people being silent? If you have a published study by an acedemic group, available that shows no sperm or antler damage please post the link so everyone can benefit. If one study above shows that 8/10 of an ounce of cotton seed for 109 days is enough to qualify it as a contraceptive for deer then I wonder what happens when they eat 3 or 4 pounds of it day after day? Just saying, because I've seen it, without numbers doesn't mean much. The reports say what they say. What I see here is like someone saying, " I smoke, the surgeon general and other studies show, that I might be killing myself, but I've seen lots of old people who are smokers and they look okay to me." Again, if cottonseed works for you, knock yourself out. I don't really care. I'm not trying to take cottonseed of the market, I'm just trying to inform people who might be new or thinking about feeding to be careful about what they are feeding and what the overall impact could be. Population and herd management are good, but habitat management works wonders too, if you can afford that. Anyway, if any of you have a study that shows cottonseed causes no harm, please post the link so everybody can benefit.
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: deerfeeder]
#336277
04/01/08 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,687
txbobcat
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Deer on free range that are not starving are NOT eating 3 and 4 lbs a day of any supplemental feed. Maybe in some deer managers dream world.
I was pointing out you have no study showing any impact on pasture deer after being fed cottonseed.
Cottonseed as a contraceptive may be a plus in a lot of areas!!!
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: txbobcat]
#336278
04/02/08 01:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,631
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
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duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,631 |
Crap, I misread the topic again, I thought it said "beer"...
INteresting articles all, seems to be split results, at least its scientific research instead of voodoo management like....no, I said I wouldn't talk about antler restrictions any more
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#336279
04/02/08 05:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,251
cibolo
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i don't have any experience with cottonseed other than we used to feed are cattle with it. the one thing that worry's me with it is the sterile part. i've read both sides of it and the one question i still have is how long does the gossypol stay in the system. because if it does stay in there system for a long period of time it seems it wouldn't matter how much they eat a day,and if your managing an area that has maybe good genetics but low herd count that could be very damaging to overall herd. it seems everybody that uses it in their programs are having no negative effects,but how do you really gauge it properly. you can fly the ranch,head counts,etc. but on a big place it may take years to notice any huge impact the gossypol may have on a herd.
"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it." - Thomas Jefferson
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under GOD, then we will be a nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: cibolo]
#336280
04/02/08 09:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,287
deerfeeder
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cibolo, go to either google or yahoo and query,"effects of gossypol on livestock". There is page after page of studies about whole cottonseed. It's not just gossypol, but alfatoxins and the high fat levels that make it potentially dangerous or lethal to deer. You will find studies that caution not to feed whole cottonsed to what would be the herd sire in goats and others that tell you it's dangerous for lambs and calves. If most of the people on this forum aren't going for herd sires than I'm missing something here. The A & M Overton study on fallow deer showed reduced antler size and weight. If I remember right 1/2 the weight for WCS vs non cottonseed fed deer and about 2/3 the antler size for the WCS fed deer. I don't think that's what most people here want. My opinion is that although a fallow deer isn't a whitetail it's a whole lot closer to being a whitetail than a diary cow or herd bull is. While no one in the studies is coming right out and saying, "Don't do it!" the negative indicators, and cautions are out there (especially in some of the more recent studies) for anyone wanting to check it out with an open mind. There are even studies on the effects of gossypol on swine and fish. In my situation, where I feed other people's deer, there is no way to measure on open low fence range just what the effects are. How am I going to know that that 130 buck out there couldn't have been in the 140's? How do I know that doe with one fawn didn't have twins because of WCS? Just no way to check. Can't do a necropsy on every dead deer you find. Even if you found it before it deteriorated to the point where lab checks on the liver, testicles, and blood would have been practical. Just get the best information you can and then decide what is right for you. 
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: deerfeeder]
#336281
04/02/08 10:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,251
cibolo
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yeah a fallow would be about as close as you can get to test for the effects of WCS and it's effects on whitetail would probably be pretty close. if lyssy and eckels is not using it in their protein mix then that says a lot right there. are ranch was in wilson county and that is were i usually got are ranch supplys and feed. we used to protein feed and then we stopped the next year the deer lost at least an inch in mass. so the effects of any kind of protein can be quite considerable wether it's negative or positive. appreciate the info.
"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it." - Thomas Jefferson
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under GOD, then we will be a nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: cibolo]
#336282
04/03/08 01:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 146
olinecoach
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 146 |
Guys go back to the study I posted"COTTON SEED UPDATE" from A@M Kingsville and the email from the head of the program "Even in pen raised Whitetail they have seen no alarming results since 2003" with whole cotton seed. The study is not over but the conclusion if all they eat in pen raised deer is WCS then Low Fence deer would be fine also.
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Re: Cottonseed and YOUR deer
[Re: olinecoach]
#336283
04/04/08 02:29 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,687
txbobcat
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"Thats not what my feed salesman says!!!" hahahaha
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