Try hunting an AR county that dang near everyone processess their own deer. We have 1 processor in the county and we stop by ever so often and he might have a deer or 2 in there. Have yet to see a legal buck in there since we have gone AR. Shot my best buck in this county. Good 5.5 year old 12 point. I think most on here would have been proud to take him. Bad thing is now that we are AR he wouldn't be legal. He's right at 12 inches, but has tons of mass and extremely tall. Shot another one 1 county up(my first buck a long time ago) that was 10+ years old. No teeth left and wouldn't had made it through the winter. 11 inch spread on him. He would have had to suffer if it was an AR county then.
Add to this that I have hunted and fished in this county for over 15 years and have YET to see the GW anywhere.
I have hunted land owned by county officials and high ranked county LEO's and all have gotten ticked at me when I have tagged a deer shot on their place that I quartered there.


While I do not agree at all with the AR regs I am a management hunter and in no way is the AR regs any attempt at real management.

Im a land owner, a whole 47 acres and we havent killed any deer off our property except one that txphantom took and it was 14 maybe 15 tops. Where i live if you see um you better get your gun up and be ready to shoot cause you only got seconds to make up your mind! And yes i said my gun not the binocs. I hunt in west tx too and its good to have binocs and the chance to use um but pretty much useless were i live. And to answer the original question yes im afraid to shoot anything anymore and like CHC says i will bet alot of deer are left to rot where they drop wich is the worst thing anybody can do. Will the new regs work? i dont know yet but i dought it or we would have already seen a slight rise in bucks and we havent and i have seen less deer this year than ever before. I took one doe last year with my bow and nothing this year except in west tx. Cant kill em if they aint there!

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Im a land owner, a whole 47 acres and we havent killed any deer off our property except one that txphantom took and it was 14 maybe 15 tops.

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Not sure of the point behind that statement but my question to you would be. How many bucks do you think should come off of 47 acres and exactly how did you determine that figure.

Did someone here say that they can see and count points at 1500 yards with a pair of binocs ? Nearly a mile??
I call BS.

What's the fine for shooting a buck that doesn't meet the legal spread?

PHishTX - Are there any public land hunting places where ARs are in effect?

This is my first year of National Forest Hunting and deer are so scarce, I'll be thrilled if I even SEE a buck. Since there are no ARs in the forest I'm hunting, I'll be shooting at him, no matter what size.

Not that I'm aware of, but 100 yards and binoc's were mentioned.

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I agree. But with that said, I’ve yet to see a 3 1/2 year old on my place that wasn't well outside the 13-inch rule, hell most of my 2 1/2's are.

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That is another one of the problems Mike.

Young county ain't east Texas, nor is it west Texas.

There are plenty of really great bucks coming out of there, but I know for a fact that some folks want Young county to go with the AR's, also know for a fact that there are a bunch of deer in that county that are older/mature deer that even during this exceptional year that won't make 13 inches.

How can the overall, long term quality of the deer herd be improved if every "Legal" buck is taken out, the instant they stick their head up?

A hunter can guess age/points/spread all they want before that trigger is pulled, but it all becomes a mute point once the gun goes BANG.

My opinion, but all I see the long term effects of the AR's doing, is completeing the circle and putting everything back the way it was before all of the AR business started.

All of the bigger better quality deer are going to be shot on sight, leaving the animals with inferior genetics in the herd to do the breeding, then folks will start squealing again about not shooting "Quality" deer.

The AR's were instituted thru the efforts of a few very voiciferous individuals and TP&W's goal of making Texas "The Trophy Deer State".

As far as Hoytman's problem, I think he would like to see ONE shootable buck come across his 47 acres.

When a person is in one of the AR's and doe days are either limited to only a few days during the season, or there are no doe days in that county at all, and all of the bucks that you are seeing are boderline, and the only way to know for sure is putting it on the ground, it does not matter how many acres a person is hunting, it gets old really fast.

As Phish and a few others have said, including yourself,

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Their estimated deer counts are a joke and their ability to age deer is a disappointment to say the least.

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, TP&W in this instance bowed to the demands of a few vocal individuals and instituted the AR's without any more real hard evidence that deer brought into the processors in an area.

I am not even sure that they catalogged where all those 1.5 year olds were being killed.

They may have just went in and aged the deer that were hanging and made no attempt to see if they were killed in that county or not.

Was this a case of the biologists having real information or was it a case of like one of our Presidents said one time, "VooDoo" economics or in this game management.

Well i gotta say, Im more or less scared to shoot, i have passed on several what looked like single horn on one side but not sure enough to shoot, I did take a 8 point, i stopped him with a "baaa" and he gave me the "pose" and i had about 1.5 seconds to make the decision to pull the trigger,.... i did cause he was the biggest deer i have ever had the chance to take, he appeared to b outside the ears, he was 13.2 inches inside, with a 20 inch neck and field dressed at 148lbs, my prossesser guessed a score mid 120's,.............. AND I WAS SCARED TO DEATH TILL I GOT A TAPE MEASURE OUT!!!! And yes i realize hes not the biggest deer ever killed, but for east tx he aint to shabby... A.R. is gonna but a bind on putting meat in the freezer.... but i think it will mean bigger deer in a few years
That being said i also believe it will breed some deer that will NEVER be big enough to shoot.... pick your posion

Well here are the AR counties:


And here are the TPWD WMAs

Keep in mind in the Public Hunting System there are everything from draw-hunts, to special harvets regulations, (i.e. doe permits req'd), depending on the WMA. But yes there are counties with AR that also have WMAs and public land. Corp property & Nat'l Forest and Federal Land (that isn't a TPWD WMA)is a good example of that.

There's so many variables that come into play with deer management, that to apply a 1 law fixes all type attitude is just ludicrous. There's such a difference between my ranch and the one just on the other side of the fence, that we couldn't possibly use the same methods. If you want to apply TPWD's goal to provide more and bigger bucks, then the answer to that would be simple. Stop all hunting of deer in these specific areas, for 2-3 years or however long it takes to get it's balance back. That's what I'd do if it was my place. Think that would make me popular with the deer hunters and landowner who rely on income from deer hunting?

Let me give a little more info about my lease. We have just over 600 acres and the acorn crop is really strong this year.
This past weekend has been the best of the year as far as seeing deer is concerned. I got there about noon on Friday and had the pleasure of watching an OLD huge bodied 4 point for about 45 minutes. Not legal to shoot.
Saturday morning was even better, I had a doe come in to my area early that wasn't even as tall as the broomweed. Legal, yes...but she would have been consumed in one sitting. About 8:30, a spike came running in to the grunt call. Legal yes, but the only shot opportunity I had was a left handed shot and I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn lefthanded. Not to mention his spikes were only 3 or 4 inches tall and was probably a yearling.
Didn't see hide nor hair of anything Saturday afternoon.
Then comes Sunday morning. Out walks a 10 point and I have about a 30 second window to shoot. I have killed many deer over the years and this buck would have easily been my best. But, since this is an AR county, in that 30 second window, doubts crept into my mind. What if he is only 12 3/4? I become a criminal.
Without the restrictions, he would have been DRT and I would have had my trophy.
I feel fortunate to have the opportunity to have a place to hunt and the chance to harvest a deer. As you can see, a great weekend for me is seeing 4 deer in a 3 day span. I know many of you probably see at least 4 deer every hunt and I hope that I may be lucky enough to hunt a place like that one of these days.

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As you can see, a great weekend for me is seeing 4 deer in a 3 day span. I know many of you probably see at least 4 deer every hunt and I hope that I may be lucky enough to hunt a place like that one of these days.

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Myself and I'm sure several other are a little spoiled when it comes to deer hunting. We take allot of thing for granted. Just last night myself and 7mag, watched 6 bucks, with 5 over the 13 inch rule, and at least a dozen doe's working the Pipe Line. If i don't see at least a dozen deer every time i go feed, i feel like they cheated me. to be honest if the place i had was only showing 3-4 deer, over a 3 day period, that place would no longer be hunted. But thats real easy for me to say.

My 2 cents are this, I have mixed opinions on AR, on one hand it makes these goofy people who kill anything with horns settle down a bit, at least the legal goofy ones, the problem lies in what was talked about earlier on this thread that the first deer a hunter sees with 13" is getting shot, this might be the deer with the best genes of all, while the basket rack 6 year old buck is still walking...we own land in madison county, not an AR county and we pooled about 18000 acres and didnt kill any bucks for 5 years and got doe permits, now we have some trophies out there, my point there is I'm not sure if AR works, but i think its at least a good attempt to manage the herd in places like east texas....jmo

Interesting topic... I will tell you that as a lease holder, I am in favor of ARs. However, I am not an expert (no different than most here).

1. My experience says that I have not had a problem telling a 10 inch spread vs a 20 inch spread. I had a 2.5 year old 8 pt come out last week that was just at 13 inches. Not interested and I knew right away. He was legal after a view with the binocs and I could tell at 150 yards.
2. Certainly no system is perfect, however ARs also will help us with over harvest of the buck population. Maybe (again I am no expert here so don't attack) this will help with the deer population in some of these areas. Everything I have seen from folks in the original 6 counties say they are seeing way more deer than they were prior to ARs.
3. I understand Phish's opinion regarding landowner rights. However, there are landowners out there that do not respect what a reasonable amount of wildlife to take off their property is. ARs can keep the harvest of the buck population at a reasonable number. Restrictions like this are difficult. I like them because they keep neighbors from overharvesting the buck population by overloading a lease and shooting the first thing that comes by.

I will be up front and tell you that I do see plenty of deer at our place. Just asking the question here? Is the reason there are few deer in your area overharvest or the carrying capacity of the land is not that great? If so, what other programs can we implement to make sure that we don't overharvest or violate the carrying capacity?

Another question - If shooting a deer for meat is so important and there are so few deer in your area, it seems we might have a population issue. There are plenty of places in the state that need deer harvested. I would ask the question if it is a right to kill what I want no matter the population? Just a thought???? Why wouldn't we point those folks who are meat hunters to a part of the state where there is plenty of meat?

Please don't attack. Just trying to provide a healthy counterpoint to the point made.

Huntalot

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I'm not sure if AR works, but i think its at least a good attempt to manage the herd in places like east texas....

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It's allot better than what I'd do, and at least it's an attempt. But it's not an absolute. You can't broad-brush this and expect equal results across the board.

HWY-MAN i know we dont agree on alot of things but i do agree with you that to close the season for a couple of years would be a good idea. I would hate not going hunting but if it meant i would see more deer i would vote for it. I just want to see the occasional legal deer to make all those hours in the stand woth the wait.

I think the total jist of the whole issue, boils down to how it effects each individual and what their personal feelings are toward deer hunting and what they want to kill.

I have noticed that when AR's are instituted into counties where does are legal all season long, and the spike rule is added, it is accepted a little better, than it is in counties where doe days are limited or non-existant.

I also feel that it is the question of why a person can be one one side of a county line, can kill any buck they see, and a person on the other side of the line has to deal with the AR's.

It is like the old East Zone-West Zone One Buck scheme.

You could kill one buck in all East Zone or all West Zone counties combined.

That meant that when I was hunting the place in Montague county, I could shoot a buck there, but could not then go out to Ector county 200+ miles away and shoot another buck, because it was a West Zone county also.

The rub comes in, because a person with property that straddles a county line, in the case I am describing, it is Montague and Cooke counties, could legally shoot two deer on that property, because one county was East Zone and the other was West Zone.


Also, and I don't think I am the only one that feels this way, inferior bucks are being left in the herd, and at some point and it may take 10 years for it to happen, the short term gains are going to be swamped due to all of the buck fawns being born with inferior genetics.

Hope none of that appeared to be an attack.

Yea but we agree on the important things, I'm a big Hoyt fan.

Huntalot -- you take a reasonable tone and ask reasonable questions. In particular, in East Texas there are extensive national forests. TPWD (who manages them) must feel there is an adequate population, because they issue antlerless permits every year. That said, if I see ONE deer of either sex in an outing, I'm lucky. As for going somewhere else, well, it's just too expensive. It takes what is essentially a free hunt and turns it into a $500+ hunt.

Huntalot, I would give my right arm to have a lease with a large deer population.
Here is the problem..... How do I find that place?
I am paying $1000 for this lease and thats really more than I want to pay or am capable of paying. A good lease is becoming harder and harder to find. There is allways a REASON a lease comes available. The reasons are numerous. I am constantly searching for a better place but my searches are yielding nothing unless I can come up with $2500+.
The main reason I am still hunting is my kids. I want them to have the same outdoor experiences I enjoyed as a youngster and hope that they will pass that passion for the outdoors along to their kids.
I'm just afraid that by the time they are old enough (and my youngest is 13) is that hunting will be a thing of the past with the exception of the extremely wealthy.

I say buy a pair of binoculars, look at racks from previous years that you know spread on, and lastly use the binoculars. I have hunted in AR county for a while and have little trouble.

matt