I believe that AR's work in some areas of the State and not others and not in others!!! They put them in Tyler County to save a lot of the young bucks and they have done that but, unfortunately, they have also saved a lot of older, mature bucks that because of a genetic trait common in my area have high narrow racks and it seems, at my lease any way, the only bucks not safe are spikes!!! I exaggerate, a little, out of 30 deer killed 6 did make the 13in requirement and the largest was 12.8in!!! I still say you cannot make an apple out of an orange!!!

Great point - Most likely that deer would not survive opening morning due to the mentality of "if its legal shoot it" by a some people in that part of the State (I DIDNT SAY EVERYONE IN THAT PART OF THE STATE FOR THOSE ON HERE THAT LIKE OVERGENERALIZING AND GET THEIR PANTIES IN A WAD OVER REALITY). Remember 13" is a wall hanger by some in this neck of the woods mostly because everything with any horns before AR got shot before they could even make 13" so yes - 13" was a trophy. I know- I grew up and have hunted in that part pof the State all my life.

In most areas AR would be the only thing (MOST LIKELY) that got this guy through the first year and to this point, so he can be shot unfortunately this year (heaven forbid some people let a young legal buck walk to possibly be a bruiser next year. For those that say "you dont know he will be bigger next year" or "the people on next property will shoot him" as an excuse to shoot a deer like this, one thing is for sure - if he is shot now you will never know what the next year would have brought. Agreed it all goes back to the hunters and mindset of proper management and the State possibly needing to tweak things. I AGREE - there are a FEW circumstances where you have some bucks with really tall racks that dont and may never exceed 13". Ok - so they walk. We live to hunt another day. Just like in life - there is no perfect solution to every situation. Agree to disagree. Its all about educating yourself and opening your mind to other opinions - some are just set in their ways and never will accept anything different than the way they were raised. This is the same thing that happened with seatbelts - as an owner and driver of a vehicle it should be my decision to dwear a seatbelt. But due to actions of other people, the State had to once again put on its babysitting hat and put rules into place for everyone. Its a fact that GENERALLY the only people that ever get mad about these state imposed rules are the ones that were not already practicing them even though it was common sense to be using them.

How big is your lease?

6200 acres

I don't understand why AR's are working in some areas, and not others.

THe biggest complaint from AR's seems to be a lack of total deer, not an over abundance of mature under 13" deer.

so what's the variable? more hunters per acre? lower deer density in the areas it's not working?

TPW obviously noticed the ridiculous buck to doe ratios in east texas (10-15 doe per buck?) and upped the doe harvest.

so why aren't they noticing a catastrophic kill off of deer?

were these areas carrying more deer than they could sustain, and deer are dying off?

it just doesn't make sense why all things the same, it would work so well in so many places, and be catastrophic in other areas.

I don't see how a few random narrow racked deer are going to change the dynamics to ALL narrow racked deer in just a few years. If your buck/doe ratio is 2 to 1, then the most likely scenario is that each buck will breed two does. All the dominant buck theories just don't hold water in reality.... I've watched bucks stick with a single doe for DAYS sometimes...what's going on with all the other does during that time that a dominant buck is hanging with a single doe? I can tell you.... they are gettin it on with anything with a deer penis and deer balls.

Actually, no, very much anti... b/c overall I haven't seen any difference in the size and age of deer now then when I started hunting back when I was knee high to a grasshopper. Seadog does have a legit gripe and concern because down there, narrow is the norm and wide is the exception. The lease next door has records dating back to when the fence was first put up and it shows what he is talking about. A lot of places won't be that way. Once again, that place was heavily culled trying to keep deer around with frames to look like the deer on Boggy Slough. There is still heavy culling on the place, but not because of narrow bucks, but because of deer that just don't put on the points or have the MBs required to drive up the B&C scores. Despite us having nice deer on the smaller place, we also have a whole lot of spikes and those are freegame just like most of the 2.5yr olds..... we have the neighbors shoot some deer every year and never is it one of the older ones we are waiting around for...anything with 10pt+ and still young and dumb might as well call and make reservations at the local processor.

And the lease that borders it that rifleman talks about I think he said it was 12,000 with I have to admit years of better management than mine and still has same type of bucks with narrow racks!!! I understand the need for saving a lot of young bucks and I understand the fault lies with a lot of the hunters in the County but AR's is not the answer. There has to be a better solution!!!

no one gave me an answer as to why they are complaining but not on the mld program. What of it?

seadog it would be very easy for your property to manage anyway you saw fit if your were on the program. Besides keeping a log of deer sightings and cutting the jaw bones out of the deer you kill there really isnt much else to it.

What were the regulations on taking does prior to AR's in these East Texas counties? Permits only based on acreage?

No the doe regs stayed the same. You can take them from the beginning of Bow Season through the weekend after Thanksgiving and, if I'm not mistaken, muzzle loader season!!!

I forgot about LAMPS and MLD tags!!!

In Cass County (far NE Texas) you can take up to two doe during archery season and the first 16 days of general season. No doe during muzzleloader or extended youth unless you are on one of the permit programs.

Not sure I am following - it was my understanding that when AR's were implemented the doe harvest numbers increased as well in the East Texas counties.

in some...in our main county they went from archery and Thankgiving weekend to the first 2 weeks.


jbs, we don't have the doe population built to consider mld on the large tract we hunt, been working on the shot out place for 5 yrs now and things are going great... on the place next to Seadog's it's been on mld since the program began.

Gotcha - what county are in?
So, is your complaint against AR's that you are not on MLD and thus can't cull? I am assuming you are on a large piece of land and were already practicing deer management, correct?

Do you know what the doe regulations were on the other E. TX counties prior to AR's - such as Hopkins county?

I don't know the numbers or facts but your statement in a way goes with my thinking to a point. I like to hunt and eat venison, with the AR's in place the state stopped some hunters from selectively culling out 2-3-4 yr old buck with inferior small racks, so to make up the loss of getting the venison from those bucks were had to start harvesting the does, so I can see the doe harvest numbers go up. By the way IMO there are way more deer in the East Texas woods than a lot of people think. I hunt thick brush and its hard to get there and hard to hunt and I see way more deer than the guys on my lease that hunt pipelines, highlines and clear cuts. And thats where the deer hang out if it has a good food source, thickets. I've seen 3-9 deer on my stands when the others haven't seen anything and its pretty consistant. You can't survey that deer population from behind a desk or driving down some dirt roads at night with a spot light.

I've hunted Tyler County for the last 3 years. The 1st year it was not AR and the bag limit was 2 bucks and 2 does. The last 2 years the bag limits were the same but with the AR 13in rule!!! Now I have seen deer but not as much as other parts of the state because, I think, of the thicket!!! My furthest shot from my 2 stands is 20-25yds max and the deer come out probably 5yds from me. It gets exciting!!! The problem I have is that genetically inferior high, narrow racks!!! The AR's were put in place, TPWD says, to save a lot of the younger deer. It HAS WORKED in that regard but it has also protected the older mature bucks that will never make 13in and are spreading their genetics around!!! There has to be a solution other than the 13in rule and I believe by lowering the buck limit to 1 instead of 2 would work better!!! the doe limit in Tyler County has been 2 for the whole time I've been hunting there and not just since AR's!!!

Nac & SA Co(s) mainly. My complaint is that TPW claims the herd structure stinks, yet in these counties offer the option to shoot 2 bucks and it would be very easy to kill both without shooting anything over the age of 2.5. 95% of properties in East Tx should not even know culling exists.

not sure of Hopkins, never have looked at their regs.

Hopkins, Red River and NETX were one doe in archery only or with LAMPS permits before AR's.... now some are archery thru ThaNKSGIVING and some are the four day thianksgiving weekend for does...

Seadog, your last post sounds almost exactly like the one I wrote that started this LONGGGGGGG THREAD! I think you and I understand the dynamics of our area (Tyler County) and the folks from other areas back what works for them, not us. Maybe I'll see you in ML season. Good luck! Merry Christmas!

Same to you!!!

Guys,

ARs are awesome.

Sincerely,

cameron00

All this could be avoided if the antler restriction was large enough to protect an 18 month buck and small enough to give the individual hunter the leeway to choose to harvest any buck larger if he so desires and it is within the limits decided on freely between the group of hunters and landowner for that particular pasture.

I contend that is probably 11 or 12 inches inside spread. There might be an occassional 18 mos buck that is harvested, but there will be a lot of older bucks that will never be 13" inside spread that will go home with happy hunters.

I favor freedom to choose. If you have a pasture where the members/land owner decide nothing less than B&C will be harvested, well then the golden rule should prevail. They contract for a price and "he who has the gold rules."

On the other hand, if you are on a lease with average Joes that work hard all year and get a few weekends or a few days away every year to go deer hunting and there is a reasonable rule (11"or 12")to protect the 18 mos age class, then I see no problem at all for a man to harvest any buck that is larger. Some will and some won't. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so it is with "trophies".

I am also of the opinion that the major benefit is in protecting the younger bucks and the rule should be just enough to do that and no more. The rest should be left to the hunters/land owners deciding what they want to do.

Let me apply this. I had a very nice pasture in a good area. We protected the bucks and only harvested what our TPW biologist recommended each year based on our deer census. There were small pastures in the area. Sometimes they would harvest bucks we had protected. This was a concern but did not diminish the wonderful experience we had for many years on that lease. We did not go out and seek a law that would tie the hands of our small neighbors. We did not look for a way to outlaw their hunting. We accepted the situation for what it was and enjoyed the heck out of the lease and the family fellowship it provided. Some of the best memories I have while my kids were growing up revolve around that place. I never did drop the hammer on a big buck there though there were some nice ones harvested. It was too much fun to watch them with the kids. We brought does home for venison. But I was free to do so if I wanted to and so were the other hunters involved. I am sure, too, there was a lot of joy on some of the small pastures around us when they harvested a buck.

In the end, someone leased the place for a multiple of what i was paying. It was because the results of our work could be seen from the road that was running through the place. The land owner, a friend, called and told me about the offer. I knew he needed the money and I knew that it wasn't my concept of good stewardship to pay that much so I told him to take the money.( Looking back on it as an older and wiser fellow, I should have gone for "split the difference" ;-)
May God bless Texas and my fellow outdoorsmen.
Merry Christmas!

PS Please cut the guys hunting in the piney woods some slack. Chances are they are better hunters than many of the trophy hunters on high dollar leases.

Kell, I think 12" would be a lot more acceptable than 13 and I would even lower the bag limit to 1 buck for about 3-4 yrs then most people would not be content with the smaller buck!!! I see a lot of older mature deer that go 12-12.5 inches!!! Your right about hunting piney woods/big thicket, it tough to hunt and it is exciting to have deer appear suddenly at 3-5 yards from you!!! My furthest shot is about 20-25yds from my stand!!! Personally I don't normally shoot younger deer, (I did shoot a "unicorn" spike this year), and have passed on a few bucks because of that but I know a lot of people in the County do!!! I know I won't see as many deer in the thicket as in the other areas of Texas, but I do see deer and the bucks genetically don't and never will match the bucks in other Parts of the State!!!