I see you DO understand why we aren't shooting does out in the inlaws place Go from squat to respectable in 4-5 yrs

I was told the same thing. The person that told me that didn't appreciate me calling him an ignorant moron.

After reading this I say shoot the spikes

They don't like it much do they?

Because there aren't that many people that have thought about what doe age does in a deer herd... and no one wants to really think about shooting doe fawns... much less talk about it...

Please expand on this thought. Amo, are you suggesting young does should be harvested instead of the older does. I guess if you shoot the young doe and the old doe dies of natural causes you have actually removed 2 mouths from the herd?

The spike issue is really this...

It was devised by knowledgeable scientists to give the uneducated public an easily identifiable rule in deer management to execute because they couldn't handle any more...

But.. just like any point rule... it is horribly flawed.

While a spike is not always a spike, decades of research has found that if a buck doesn't carry two forked antlers by it's second year, it will very likely develop lesser racks in all subsequent years, than those bucks that do.

Oh I just posted this on another thread...

Doe fawns have a 0% contribution to the next year's fawn crop... they count as a doe... and they don't have fawns... (in some very very rare cases they may have them in Texas, but the "fawn cycle" is almost exclusively a northern phenomena)

If you take doe fawns as your doe harvest you leave mature does which will have fawns... increasing not only your fawn crop percentage... but total fawn numbers...

Now... this creates a problem... your younger does should have the best genetics if you are hitting your buck side hard (this is debatable that you can affect genetics in the pasture) and you are killing them off in order to have higher fawn crops...

This is why you would execute something termed a doe "flip"

It goes something like this... kill all the doe fawns you can for 2 years... kill NOTHING the 3rd... then double kill mature does and doe fawns the fourth...

This allows you to recruit a big age class of young does into your doe herd without having a big fawn crop % drop the 5th year because you let an age class of doe fawns live the 3rd year to be bred at 1.5 in year 5...

It is very rarely this clean (especially in areas where variable rainfall make fawn crops fluctuate radically) but that is the general idea...

And RTP let me also say... this is an advanced concept that can only be worked on with your doe numbers approximately where you want them.

X2 have been doing this same thing.

But, lots of people can't identify a 2 year old from a yearling and over 90% of your spikes are yearlings.

you have to be super careful and make sure you aren't shooting button bucks though

Button bucks are easy to indentify if you look. Wait for them to turn broadside and give a profile and you can see the nubs. Using a spotting scope if you have to but I use 10 power binos and have only shot one buck fawn in over 30 yrs, I did not look at him since he was their with 7 bucks and they all chased him around for an hour like he was a doe. Learned that day to always check first and never made the mistake again.

key in red

Yes but the net number of deer you gain in fawns the next year by shooting only doe fawns vastly outweighs the few mistakes you will inevitably make.

You can really cut the numbers of mistakes down by waiting until late december or january to do the harvest... this gives buttons a chance to grow enough to be very noticeable.

This is my view on spikes: Take a look at your deer herd. If you have a 10% spike population and the rest of the bucks seem to be on track, I would take the spike out, no matter what his age. You guys already know the variables causing spikes---Nutrition & genetics. Not so much age. What is it that age can do to an individual to cause him to be inferior relative to others of his same age class?That don't hold water. Lets look at the other two factors. If 90% of the population is normal, and we have a 10% inferior population, is nutrition really a factor? Probably not. Why would 90% of the population be able to get the nutrition they need and the other 10% can't? They all have the same oppurtunity. Their inferiority is probably genetic. Sure, they may turn around someday, but why wait to see? and why give them the oppurtunity to breed and slow your management down? You may be wasting time and resources on an unknown. I would go ahead and remove them from the herd. There is no use in waiting. Would a good rancher hang on to a marginal heifer or steer just to "see if he turns around"? Probably not. Why hang on to a marginal animal that may never catch up. He's just taking resources from the non-marginal individuals. Now, lets looks at things from a different view. lets say 40% are spikes and 60% are normal. That is a high percentage and this could very well be a nutritional problem that is manifesting itself in a higher percentage of the herd because nutritional deficiencies will be more widespread and will more likely affect a greater number of individuals. But....they all still have the same oppurtunity and if you want the "best" for your herd, you want to keep those animals that can be superior through thick and thin. I would probably still remove the spikes, but be a little more careful. No matter how you cut it, spikes are inferior animals. They may not always stay spikes, but they will almost always be inferior relative to the rest of the herd that got off to a good start. This is just my view on it and you can take it with a grain of salt.

My biologist told me that 60% of your successful breeding is done by deer 3.5 years or older. That being said a 1.5 year old spike likely aint spreading his inferior genes anyway. I believe that a spike is not always a spike as I have seen them develop. But I do shoot them. I just wait until their older to see if they develop. I agree with what destroyer said about nutrition. When we go through a drought year I see alot more spikes as a result.

Where is the Spike Slayer?

I agree that a spike can turn into something in it's second or third year, but obviously a little slow on genetics - Do you want him breeding your does or another young deer with a decent 1st year rack? Shoot him for the meat!

I can guarantee you that 100% of the time a spike WILL always stay a spike...
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If you pull the trigger on him.

I have read articles in Deer and Deer Hunting magazine that claimed younger bucks are equally involved in breeding. This is based on the premise that breeding is clearly a matter of opportunity, rather than something where an older buck can keep doe "herded" until each one comes into estrus. I myself remember when I watched a young spike breed a doe. Common sense tells me that a buck obviously cannot tend to every doe at all times. Add to this how a buck might stay with a single doe for the better part of a day, waiting for her to accept him, and you have to believe that younger bucks get their fair share of doe.

younger ones will breed if your ratio is out of whack, or you just have a ton of deer on a place....or nothing over the age of 2.5.

Texas Dan I have read similar articles. I think the age structure of the herd has alot to do with it. I've also read articles that say that younger deer only account for 15% to 30% of fawns bred. I think in any animal dominant males breed more. What that percentage is...your guess is as good as mine.

From some articles I have read, a spike isn't always a spike. A 2 1/2yo spike will probable be a spike. I think it has to do with when the doe was bred.... 1st round 1 1/2yo bucks will probably have forked horns where a late bred doe will produce a 1 1/2yo spike. Just my opinion. I will let a young spike walk, older ones get turned into ground meat and sausage

First off all, if you're on a low fenced ranch, and you're trying to control antler growth, you're wasting your time. Even high fenced ranches can't control it. If you're not hand picking the buck and penning him up in a cage with a doe and forcing them to mate, then you're not controlling anything. Thats why breeding farms are so succesfull, because they hand pick the buck and doe. You can't force only the best bucks to breed on a normal hunting ranch. You can only hope. Biologists aren't always right either. They come up with a plan and sell it to you. Yes it makes sense but it is never guaranteed to work, because there are way too many factors that are uncontrollable. My point is this, the only way to get close to a guarantee is to get you a high fenced ranch and kill off every deer in it, then get out your pocket book and go down to a breeding pen and hand pick the bucks and proven does and let them go on your property. That's the ONLY way to control anything about deer breeding and antler growth. Now how many of us are going to do that? Exactly.

Then quit wasting your time on spikes and focus on mature deer that have grown up and proven to be 3 to 5 year old garbage racks. At least they have shown you all they can and will be. You can't stop them from breeding, if you think you can then you're just another person not knowing a damn thing about culling and growing big racks.