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Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Tye] #1844347 11/18/10 03:43 PM
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Gotta love the old get into MLD (govt program) to avoid the pitfalls of a bad regulation argument. hammer



Originally Posted By: WMI report
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?

confused2TPWDconfused2
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Tye] #1844393 11/18/10 03:53 PM
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Would love to do MLD....done it before on other ranches and it worked well and was the exact opposite of ARs in a lot of ways...but it ain't my call. Question is why would the state, in their infinite wisdom, enact laws that are exactly the opposite of what is preached by MLD plans?

Ironic that when ARs don't work, it's suggested that we get on another state program to protect our ranch from the same state's game laws. confused2


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: PHishTX] #1844403 11/18/10 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: PHishTX
Gotta love the old get into MLD (govt program) to avoid the pitfalls of a bad regulation argument. hammer


Why not get into it if you are into managment? Did you ever think that people got into the program before AR's started because it allows for easier management with the 5 month rifle hunting season and liberal bag limits. bang bang Looks to be a no brainer to me confused2



Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: HillbillyDeluxe] #1844408 11/18/10 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: HillbillyDeluxe
Would love to do MLD....done it before on other ranches and it worked well and was the exact opposite of ARs in a lot of ways...but it ain't my call. Question is why would the state, in their infinite wisdom, enact laws that are exactly the opposite of what is preached by MLD plans?

Ironic that when ARs don't work, it's suggested that we get on another state program to protect our ranch from the same state's game laws. confused2


Well said my friend, well said. cheers


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Tye] #1844415 11/18/10 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tye
....And its FREE! Doesn't cost a dime.


WoW they have us just where they want us.

It is from the government and it is free ???? Must be Obama money.

Why can't they take the moneys (salary/vehicles/time/resources) of those biologists that do it for free and give the GWs a raise new/better equipment, etc. Or how about they direct it at the shabby scientific research and data collection as pointed out by Wildlife management Institute's (WMI) peer review?

Rather than providing FREE services to folks who want to shoot large antlered deer ?



Last edited by PHishTX; 11/18/10 04:01 PM. Reason: kant tipe

Originally Posted By: WMI report
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?

confused2TPWDconfused2
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: HillbillyDeluxe] #1844432 11/18/10 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: HillbillyDeluxe
Would love to do MLD....done it before on other ranches and it worked well and was the exact opposite of ARs in a lot of ways...but it ain't my call. Question is why would the state, in their infinite wisdom, enact laws that are exactly the opposite of what is preached by MLD plans?

Ironic that when ARs don't work, it's suggested that we get on another state program to protect our ranch from the same state's game laws. confused2


And how is it the exact opposite of AR's. MLD's are issued for people that "actually" want to manage their land which includes correcting the sex ratio if out of whack, increasing the age structure of the buck herd while reducing the doe segments age. Thus creating a health environment for both domestic stock and the native animals.

Not everyone is going to manage their herd on their property. Most people go out on opening weekend, Thanksgiving Weekend and maybe Christmas. Those type people wouldn't want to get on the MLD program because all they want to do is kill some animals for meat/antlers. They don't care about sex ratios, deer densities,carrying capacity etc. They want to get their deer and get back on the golf course.



Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: PHishTX] #1844457 11/18/10 04:05 PM
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rofl
You people crack me up how much you dis"cuss" this stuff. Get over it. The government lies, people steal and ARs are the rule. Is it because of the money spending horn hunters? Maybe but the reality with government, business and people is money talks and . . . well you know the rest. Deer hunting is a business. Big business. Money talks. The rest of us just have to deal with the fall out.



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Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: HillbillyDeluxe] #1844474 11/18/10 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: HillbillyDeluxe
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You are gonna have to give me proof that it does not work. Other than that one dang deer that you can't kill.


The proof is the deer that I see while hunting, both young and old, and the fact that deer that were once primary targets for very successful game management plans that I was a part of are now off limits and left to breed and produce similar bucks. BTW....not sure the size of your place, I hunt a 14,000 acre ranch with a very low amount of hunters per acre compared to most places. It doesn't work where we are and is actually a detriment. ALL of our hunters, many of whom have been hunting the ranch for 25 years or more and are quite experienced in game management, consider it a complete joke. And the fact that it's just more government intervention in our sport and our lives doesn't help.

Perhaps it works for you, but not for us, and there is no way you could prove it does because the proof doesn't exist.....therefore shouldn't be forced on the whole state based on a small amount of criteria nowhere near our ranch.
I know you've said y'all won't get MLD, but it's not because the state won't let you. Y'all have that option.
I hunt 750acs and I'm smart enough to know that If a person has less than 2000 acs, they can't change the genetics of their deer by culling. It's impossible. They can't control what comes on their place or what leaves their place without high fence. I can't afford that fence, but MLD is free to you. I can go to my neighbors and beg them not to shoot young bucks, but they don't have to listen. There are a heck of a lot more places in Texas that are smaller than mine than there are that are 14000 acs. You have options, they don't.
I have just as much proof that they were needed as you have that they don't work.



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Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: passthru] #1844475 11/18/10 04:10 PM
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The anti TPWD guys on here are a joke. Go drink some more Dr Kroll coolaid. One of these days you will figure out that Kroll is in it for the $$$ and the $$$ dont roll in if he agrees with a state agency.

Its also funny that everyone has that one pic of that one deer that should be exempted from ARs. How about all the 10 pt two year old bucks that arent being shot? Can some folks post up those pics? Oh and while your at it let me know how many more deer you folks are seeing in some of these areas...

ARs are far from perfect but in many of these areas something had to be done. Hunters werent managing the areas on their own.


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: passthru] #1844487 11/18/10 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: passthru
rofl
You people crack me up how much you dis"cuss" this stuff. Get over it. The government lies, people steal and ARs are the rule. Is it because of the money spending horn hunters? Maybe but the reality with government, business and people is money talks and . . . well you know the rest. Deer hunting is a business. Big business. Money talks. The rest of us just have to deal with the fall out.


Get over it? Why should he have to? This is fun, it gives us something to do when we can't be in the woods looking for a doe, spike or trophy....whichever we prefer to shoot and besides, apparently you've been following along, right?..... up


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Tye] #1844493 11/18/10 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tye
And how is it the exact opposite of AR's.


The type of inferior bucks that are now protected by state law were the prime target per the MLD plan. The subject buck (and there are more than one, contrary to the thought of some....this is just the latest example) would have been a fantastic cull buck under a successful management plan. Now it is protected and left to breed until the coyotes get him, he's hit by a truck, or he dies of old age.

One scenario = lives and is protected by law for management purposes; one sceario = dies and is a prime target for management purposes......exact opposite.


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: txbobcat] #1844496 11/18/10 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: txbobcat
The anti TPWD guys on here are a joke. Go drink some more Dr Kroll coolaid. One of these days you will figure out that Kroll is in it for the $$$ and the $$$ dont roll in if he agrees with a state agency.

Its also funny that everyone has that one pic of that one deer that should be exempted from ARs. How about all the 10 pt two year old bucks that arent being shot? Can some folks post up those pics? Oh and while your at it let me know how many more deer you folks are seeing in some of these areas...

ARs are far from perfect but in many of these areas something had to be done. Hunters werent managing the areas on their own.


I've hunted 5 days straight...morning and evening. I've seen a grand total of 4 deer. None that for one reason or another I could have shot.


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: txbobcat] #1844498 11/18/10 04:14 PM
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FWIW
"EYE" don't give a rat about Kroll one way or the other, nor how a private citizen obtains his $$$ (as long as it's legal).

On the other had

FREE ??

From the Government ???? rofl rofl



Originally Posted By: WMI report
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?

confused2TPWDconfused2
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Curly] #1844503 11/18/10 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Curly
Originally Posted By: txbobcat
The anti TPWD guys on here are a joke. Go drink some more Dr Kroll coolaid. One of these days you will figure out that Kroll is in it for the $$$ and the $$$ dont roll in if he agrees with a state agency.

Its also funny that everyone has that one pic of that one deer that should be exempted from ARs. How about all the 10 pt two year old bucks that arent being shot? Can some folks post up those pics? Oh and while your at it let me know how many more deer you folks are seeing in some of these areas...

ARs are far from perfect but in many of these areas something had to be done. Hunters werent managing the areas on their own.


I've hunted 5 days straight...morning and evening. I've seen a grand total of 4 deer. None that for one reason or another I could have shot.


So you should shoot MORE deer off of your place???


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: txbobcat] #1844510 11/18/10 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: txbobcat
Originally Posted By: Curly
Originally Posted By: txbobcat
The anti TPWD guys on here are a joke. Go drink some more Dr Kroll coolaid. One of these days you will figure out that Kroll is in it for the $$$ and the $$$ dont roll in if he agrees with a state agency.

Its also funny that everyone has that one pic of that one deer that should be exempted from ARs. How about all the 10 pt two year old bucks that arent being shot? Can some folks post up those pics? Oh and while your at it let me know how many more deer you folks are seeing in some of these areas...

ARs are far from perfect but in many of these areas something had to be done. Hunters werent managing the areas on their own.


I've hunted 5 days straight...morning and evening. I've seen a grand total of 4 deer. None that for one reason or another I could have shot.


So you should shoot MORE deer off of your place???


The TP&W apparently thinks so...spike tag and added doe bag limits.
But I shouldn't be an anti-TP&W guy.


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Curly] #1844520 11/18/10 04:19 PM
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Doesnt matter the deer density there is almost always a need to take doe for balancing deer numbers.

Even with ARs a lot of the management is still up to the hunters. Because you have X number of tags doesnt mean you need to take X number of deer.


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: HillbillyDeluxe] #1844524 11/18/10 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: HillbillyDeluxe
Would love to do MLD....done it before on other ranches and it worked well and was the exact opposite of ARs in a lot of ways...but it ain't my call. Question is why would the state, in their infinite wisdom, enact laws that are exactly the opposite of what is preached by MLD plans?

Ironic that when ARs don't work, it's suggested that we get on another state program to protect our ranch from the same state's game laws. confused2
ARs don't preach the opposite of management plans. Culling bucks is the least important part of a management plan. Age is the most important thing in growing big deer.
MLD's main purpose is to control numbers and sex ratio, not to cull bucks. That is why when you do the surveys all they care about is the number of bucks, does, and fawns. The form doesn't have a column for number of inferior cull bucks.



It is preponderant to prorogue verbalising and let the citizenry surmise that you are doltish, than to disseminate and expunge all skepticism
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Curly] #1844538 11/18/10 04:25 PM
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Not really following, just like to see it still going civil enough to not get locked. Keep up the good work. up



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Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: HillbillyDeluxe] #1844543 11/18/10 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: HillbillyDeluxe
Originally Posted By: Tye
And how is it the exact opposite of AR's.


The type of inferior bucks that are now protected by state law were the prime target per the MLD plan. The subject buck (and there are more than one, contrary to the thought of some....this is just the latest example) would have been a fantastic cull buck under a successful management plan. Now it is protected and left to breed until the coyotes get him, he's hit by a truck, or he dies of old age.

One scenario = lives and is protected by law for management purposes; one sceario = dies and is a prime target for management purposes......exact opposite.


Can you please show me several studies that show "culling" a herd in a low fenced enviroment will change the overall genetics of a herd. Then I will say you are correct. By killing that buck or not will not impact your deer herd that you will ever see. Sure you can kill him, but how do you know he didn't breed several does at 1.5 or 2.5? Now his genetics are passed on prior to youo even knowing that he would never be over 13".

"Cull" is a term to make people feel better about pulling the trigger on a deer that may or may not be the biggest buck of their life. It also makes them feel like they are doing something for the deer herd. Period.

Where does it say that you have to "cull" bucks to have a "successful management plan" rofl Shoot the so called "cull" to remove a mouth from the herd, but don't think you will ever change the genetics



Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: passthru] #1844568 11/18/10 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: passthru
Not really following, just like to see it still going civil enough to not get locked. Keep up the good work. up


up


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: PHishTX] #1844593 11/18/10 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: PHishTX
FWIW
"EYE" don't give a rat about Kroll one way or the other, nor how a private citizen obtains his $$$ (as long as it's legal).

On the other had

FREE ??

From the Government ???? rofl rofl
You conspiracy guys crack me up. Tell me, what size tin foil hat do you wear?



It is preponderant to prorogue verbalising and let the citizenry surmise that you are doltish, than to disseminate and expunge all skepticism
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Tye] #1844596 11/18/10 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tye
Can you please show me several studies that show "culling" a herd in a low fenced enviroment will change the overall genetics of a herd. Then I will say you are correct.


It works for the same reason it works in a high fence environment. Why is it that mature, but inferior bucks are targeted to better the quality under high fence and management plans, but the same exact deer is now fully protected by law under low fence?

And we're not talking about some 150 acre place surrounded by a bunch of other 150 acres places. There is a huge difference.


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: Cpack] #1844618 11/18/10 04:45 PM
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???

I think the ones that think the government hands out free stuff wear the hats or is it blinders.









nah
probably "deer goggles" deer2 lizard


Last edited by PHishTX; 11/18/10 04:46 PM. Reason: kant tipe

Originally Posted By: WMI report
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?

confused2TPWDconfused2
Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: PHishTX] #1844629 11/18/10 04:48 PM
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Deer goggles! rofl up


Re: Dadgum ARs!!! [Re: PHishTX] #1844672 11/18/10 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: PHishTX
???

I think the ones that think the government hands out free stuff wear the hats or is it blinders.









nah
probably "deer goggles" deer2 lizard
You know they are tracking this whole thread. They are gonna come to your house in the middle of the night and Perry is gonna paddle your bottom and take your birthday and your Internet away.



It is preponderant to prorogue verbalising and let the citizenry surmise that you are doltish, than to disseminate and expunge all skepticism
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