You are right, the immature trophy bucks are all that we want to protect, because they are the only deer that need protecting. I've stated I don't like the extra buck tag, and I don't like shooting yearling spikes. But if they didn't allow the shooting of spikes, y'all would really throw a fit that you could not cull em. Curly, hunters like you are the reason we need the law. The only reason that I can see that you don't like the law is that you don't want someone telling you what not to shoot. You don't want to see the logic in it. That being said, I can only speak for erath county. The law has made a difference here.

I'm not sure what your referring to "the real driving force". My two sons and I hunt on 500 low fenced acres in Mills county. I've taught my sons how to judge bucks while there alive and work on culling more does. After 6 years we now see a steady flow of bucks each time we go out. Last year, my 15 year old got the buck of a life time, his pic is on the Texas Big Game awards web-site. That one deer pretty much drove home the point about culling more does and leaving the bucks.
It's hard to do for some hunters, but one day they will finally realize you don't have to kill a BUCK each year. What did you do with that buck you shot 3 - 4 years ago, toss the antlers up in the attic? If your not going to hang him on the wall then why shoot it??

[/quote]How does this law keep anyone from shooting a doe. If someone just wants to shoot a deer, there are plenty of deer out there to be killed. What does someone not being able to afford a lease have to do with this conversation. I thought Obama promised everyone a lease before the election. The TPWD is not telling new hunters they can't shoot a deer, but they are telling them they can't shoot the first thing they see with horns. If they just want to shoot a deer, they can shoot a doe. No one should want to shoot a young buck, even new hunters [/quote]

"The TPWD is not telling new hunters they can't shoot a deer"

this is by no means a slam dunk I think TPWD caved to the "good ol boy" syndrome, If people want to manage their herd as they see fit then so be it, pony up and fence your property and get a biologist and make it happen... but the whole idea of subjecting 3/4 of the state to a regulation that SIMPLY PRODUCES HORNS, Is totally crazy. Is this going to produce more deer? is it going to give more people the opertunity to shoot a deer?

When people get started deer hunting they arent concerned with horns, that comes with time, and I been doing this for better than 35 years and horns dont do nothin for me especially when most of them you see on the wall where from some execu-hunt, with high fences, stud bucks, and a diet managed by a biologist and a staff of 17 people.

When you mention this to someone who has never hunted deer or hunted them very little the FIRST thing they say is "how in the he11 can I tell how wide the horns are" and God forbid they look here to get an idea of what a good deer is... because unless the animal is walking with a cane and has 27 points it still has "potiential"...

"the real driving force" is that private leases dont want to spend the money to have a great herd so they get their buddies at TPWD to enact these idiotic rules.




I would shoot it because its legal... and to be honest with you I have only killed 3 bucks in my life I am not in it for the horns...

without taking a side in the argument...supply makes doe a less valuable commodity. There are simply more of them...

Texas deer herds were not hurting because of "deer hunters like me" pre-ARs, hell they weren't even hurting at all but thanks for the credit/blame. That law was not "needed" but rather "wanted". It would be awesome if it could be proven that we "needed" that law. That it was broke enough to try and fix it, that we had a problem to begin with....a problem other than maybe not not enough trophies running around to suit some folks. Make the solution to an imaginary problem one that causes a lot of good hard working hunters to get heavy fines simply because a buck's antlers aren't wide enough, or a solution that makes a poor judgeship in antler width and the punishment that goes with it severe enough to leave some illegal dead deer to lay in the woods unclaimed. Is it right? No but has it happened...probably more than we care to know about. Don't fuss about hunters "like me" for shooting too many deer pre-ARs either....TP&W allows us to shoot more deer now than before.

How does this law keep anyone from shooting a doe. If someone just wants to shoot a deer, there are plenty of deer out there to be killed. What does someone not being able to afford a lease have to do with this conversation. I thought Obama promised everyone a lease before the election. The TPWD is not telling new hunters they can't shoot a deer, but they are telling them they can't shoot the first thing they see with horns. If they just want to shoot a deer, they can shoot a doe. No one should want to shoot a young buck, even new hunters [/quote]

"The TPWD is not telling new hunters they can't shoot a deer"

this is by no means a slam dunk I think TPWD caved to the "good ol boy" syndrome, If people want to manage their herd as they see fit then so be it, pony up and fence your property and get a biologist and make it happen... but the whole idea of subjecting 3/4 of the state to a regulation that SIMPLY PRODUCES HORNS, Is totally crazy. Is this going to produce more deer? is it going to give more people the opertunity to shoot a deer?

When people get started deer hunting they arent concerned with horns, that comes with time, and I been doing this for better than 35 years and horns dont do nothin for me especially when most of them you see on the wall where from some execu-hunt, with high fences, stud bucks, and a diet managed by a biologist and a staff of 17 people.

When you mention this to someone who has never hunted deer or hunted them very little the FIRST thing they say is "how in the he11 can I tell how wide the horns are" and God forbid they look here to get an idea of what a good deer is... because unless the animal is walking with a cane and has 27 points it still has "potiential"...




[/quote]Your right, if you want to manage your deer as you see fit, pony up and high fence. Shoot what ever you want. With your solid management plan you should have tons of nice young bucks and inferior bucks to kill. I can't afford it. So I would like to thank my wildlife department for trying to save some of the young deer from "the neighbors". When we cut through all the BS, most of the anti AR guys just can't stand someone telling them they can't shoot whatever the heck they want.

We've always been told what we can and can't shoot. It's just gotten more ridiculous.

The proof is in the cooler at my local processor. 5 yrs ago it would be full of 1.5 and 2.5 basket 8s and 10s. Now, those deer aren't in there. It might only buy them one more year, but it's better than dead.
I've said many times that I don't like the extra tag. But that is not an AR problem, it's a bag limit problem.

So it's okay if I fuss about bag limits (maybe because they're not so much antler related) but it's not okay if I honestly (for whatever the reason) fuss about the actual 13" antler restriction rule? You know any of it might be good for some areas such as yours, which is great BUT, maybe, just maybe, none of it is good for other areas (like where I hunt) and maybe, just maybe those areas were actually better off before any of the changes which could allow me a little leeway to fuss just a tad.

The only problem we had pre-ARs was that many small landowners were taking too many deer off their properties, thus almost all the bucks were getting killed at 1.5 years. The answer should have been to restrict harvest limits on small properties, not this AR crap.

We don't have AR rules in Bandera County but this is my way of thinking. To me it would seem that there are probably a lot of deer left out in the field that were shot and did not measure 13". Also I have culled a number of bucks that never would have gotten past the 13"s. These deer would have been breeding does and many of their offspring would have probably been like their fathers.

This is when TPWD started getting off course....



I sure wish we had good folks like Mr. Watson back in the TPWD. That didn't cave to the Politics of Co-Ops. But the BIG Deer Egos have infiltrated and that's what we have now.

TPWD caving to the Co-ops, trying to build personal legacies as great deer managers (i.e. TPWD Daddy of Antler Restrictions) and going to extraordinary lengths to do it.i.e. Using the faulty science, ignoring the corrective recommendations of the (publicly funded BTW) Scientific peer review.

I tend to agree with this. The small property guys say it wouldn't be fair to them, but they could co-op with neighbors to get tags.

Deer harvest per acre would be the only way to really "help the herd" though I have my doubts as to whether AR's are meant to really help the herd.

How many people that have leases "manage" their herd? If you don't manage it, how many deer would you know to take off each year. Do you do deer surveys for numbers and sex ratios? Take live/dressed weights on all harvested deer? The problem you run into is that very small places take off too many deer and large places don't take enough. If you had 2000 acres and needed to shoot 30 does, would you? Most people want to shoot a deer or two and go home. They don't care about the habitat. Some places can carry a deer to 10 acres while others can carry 1 deer to 30 acres.

How many of you see a mature deer on every outing or every other outing? And when I say mature, I mean 5.5 years of age+.

I have been running 2 feeders outside of my fence and I have yet to see a buck over 2.5. And the neighbors have been co-oped for over 10 years and had regulations before the State mandated it. I'm glad we got AR's in Eastland county. Maybe more people will shoot does to get the sex ratio back in balance and allow some younger bucks to walk. But thats my opinion and I like to see mature bucks.

I hunt in east texas and I am all for the AR's. I've never heard so much crying in all my life (I'm 59). 90% of the people I've talked to that have been in the original group of counties that first started AR's think it is a good thing. Give this 4 years and watch the results. We started this on our own in Hardin county 4 years ago and the results have been more than we could have expected.

Give it 4 years and it will be a 15 inch AR....

You cant afford it??? so then you are spreading the burden around to all hunters... That is my point! You cant afford to manage your lease the way it should be so then no one should have to pay????? Kinda sounds like the healthcare scam to me...

No not really... But I sure HATE the Idea that I go to the stand to get away from all the BS but now the "man" is sittin right there with me.

We're in Mills county and I too am all for the AR. Look at all the responses crying about can't shoot a deer because of AR! There's a lot of folks on here that would have already taken that 1.5 -2.5 year old buck. The avg doe has twins, generally 1 buck\1 doe. If you keep shooting the bucks, you end up with what we have, way to many does on the land. When the buck\doe ration out of balance, the prefer forbs get eaten first by all those does! Then what's left for your bucks - lower quality browse. Most of us on low fence places can't afford year round protein, so the easiest way to manage the food supply is by reducing the doe population.

Humm 4 pages of what if's again

Why is it called deer hunting and not Buck hunting, guess I'm a doe hunter more than most

Crying about those that are crying about ARs....oh the irony.

not funny......

And who is always crying????? I remember a few of you making over 70 pages about it....

The ironic part is I'm all for them and they don't affect me. AR's Rule

[/quote]You are right, the immature trophy bucks are all that we want to protect, because they are the only deer that need protecting. I've stated I don't like the extra buck tag, and I don't like shooting yearling spikes. But if they didn't allow the shooting of spikes, y'all would really throw a fit that you could not cull em. Curly, hunters like you are the reason we need the law. The only reason that I can see that you don't like the law is that you don't want someone telling you what not to shoot. You don't want to see the logic in it. That being said, I can only speak for erath county. The law has made a difference here. [/quote]

I agree with you Cpack. It has made a big difference in Comanche County.

And you've never jumped in on any of it to help create those 70 pages?