Ok, I know the blood is still wet on some of your hunting knives from this season, but I've already been putting a lot of thought into next year's season.

We were on a new lease this year and I was just so happy to be back in the stand again, I trusted some people that I probably shouldn't have.

Let me explain.

There were numerous people who hunted this lease for free in year's past. From the description, it was a combination of drinking and shooting anything with antlers that caused the landowner to basically kick everybody off and start charging.

One guy and his wife were allowed to return to hunt on a paying basis (group 1) AND my uncle and cousin were invited to hunt on a paying basis (group 2). The landowner was seeking a third group to share the lease and my father and I took up the lease (group 3).

All groups paid an equal share to the landowner, and the landowner basically had one rule for hunting, each group can shoot 2 trophy-sized bucks and all the the does and spikes that they can, for management purposes.

I this point I should have gotten it in writing, but I figured between my father and uncle, we wouldn't have any trouble. wrong wrong wrong wrong....

First weekend, my father and I (group 3) see a nice 8, a decent 5, a decent 7, etc. All of these deer with antlers inside the ears and they were all 2 to 3 years old.

We shoot 1 spike and two does.

Second weekend out (thanksgiving), my father and I (group 3) see the 8, the 7, the 5, and a small buck missing one antler. We shoot 1 spike and 1 doe.

We go to camp where group 1 is cleaning two deer. The 7pt we saw earlier and a doe. The antlers are well inside the ears. We also find out that group 1 shot an 8pt the weekend before, but no one will say how big it is.

Group 2 goes out the following weekend and shoots a 10pt, inside the ears. Again, another young deer.

We (group 3) go out last weekend, shoot two does and another spike.

So while we had a great time and had a sucessful hunt, I feel screwed. We did all the management for this lease, and still feel like everybody just shot what they wanted to. Hell I could have shot the 7, and could have had a decent 8, but I followed the rules.

PLUS... I feel robbed out of the potential the 7, the 8 and the 10 would have had for next year.

So I've been thinking we need a written contract. I've never been asked to sign a contract for a lease, but I think one is needed. Anyone have examples of a contract? Pros or cons?

Also, I want the contract to specify the minimum size, say like what's specified in the TP&W handbook, 13 in minimum inside spread, which is outside the ears.

But just saying it isn't enough, I think there needs to be a deposit, say $200. If you shoot a small buck, you lose your $200. Anyone else do anything like that?

I know I can't be there all the time to police it, but if you get caught, you lose $200.

Group 2 and group 3 have already agreed to it, I don't know if the landowner will accept it or if group 1 will like it either, but if I convince the landowner, group 1 will have to suck it up or leave. I know the landowner is pleased with group 3's managment and I think he's open to more improvement.

Also, the landowner, group 2 and my father want to put in food plots and a large protien feeder that will require work and $$$ to build and maintain. I'd like to do these things too, but not if we're going to shoot small deer, and that's why I think we need a contract. Again I'm not going to waste time and money just to shoot management deer one more season.

I think everyone needs to put money up front for protien feed, since everyone is going to benifit. Just one more reason for a contract.

Anyway, if you have experience with contracts and size restrictions, I'd like to hear it. I'd like to get something in writing within the next month so we can start with the improvements.

I know there are big deer in this area, I saw them before season, and I saw them last weekend about 1000 yards away. I think we just need better managment to grow them up and bring them in.

Be carefull with the landowner you could find youself doing all the feeding and management for a landowner that will jerk the place out from under you for more money. Not saying this is the case but I hear about it more and more and I had it happen to me.

The only issue I might have with your suggestions is that you want to make everyone put money in on the protien feed. Can't assume group one is interested and should not force them to participate. I understand your reasoning, but I have left leases when I was mandated to pay for someone else's corn/protien. If everyone is in agreement, then I say heck yeah, but it is never a good idea to try and force people to play by your rules....Seems to always cause problems. Just has been my experience, but good luck.

Yeah, everybody does their own corn and feeders. I don't have a problem with that, if you get lazy then you have no one to blame but yourself.

But if we build and install a 1000lb protien feeder in the middle of a 500 acre lease and plant 3 or 4 acres in food plots in the middle of the lease where everyone benifits, then I don't mind asking. Right now, the majority want to do it. But again, I'm not going to do the work so someone else can keep shooting small deer. If no one will agree, then I'm not going to do it. But come next year the 7 and 8pt deer will be in my freezer if I see them first.

Be cafeful approaching the land owner about it period. If you piss off group 1 they may be really good friends with the land owner and he might kick ya'll off. You all need to get together and vote for a group leader, even with the land owner. So he knows who to get in touch with if rules are broke. Then talk out your proposition, to see how everyone feels about the plan. Have the landowner give the group leader the right to kick someone off the lease if they break the rules. GOOD LUCK !!!!!!

I dunno, if the landowner is like that, do I really want to hunt there and play whipping boy? Better to find out in January and move on if necessary.

I guess the landowner could be a good friend of group 1 and then what would happen if the land owner or a member of group 1 became the group leader ?,just something to think about.

You can't force people to pay for protein, if they don't want to. You're asking for trouble. Sounds to me, like yall need to communicate a little better. On a small property like yours, management will play a large role in the quality of the deer that yall see. Group 1 should be able to understand this and will probably be all for it. With only six hunters, a contract shouldn't be necessary. Just talk with Group 1 and explain what yall are trying to do.

Even though Curtis thinks I am out to screw the world, I agree with his observation about the landowner. If I am reading what your post correctly, Group 1 had hunted the place before, and were allowed to come back on a pay basis. That means they have a history of some type with the landowner.

Also, you didn't mention, or if you did, I didn't notice, where this place is located. From what I interpreted, it isn't in one of the counties with the Antler Regs in place.

I would go really slow about approaching the land owner about this, and my reasoning is because of the relationship between the land owner and Group 1. If they are happy with what is going on and aren't causing him any problems, he might not be real receptive about being approached by the other 2 groups, especially since the other 2 groups are related. Not saying that he will take it the wrong way, but he might. Depending on his relationship to Group 1, he might feel that you all just don't like Group 1 and want to force them off the place.

My own opinion, but I am suspect of the whole deal anyway, leasing out 500 acres I believe you said, to basically 3 different groups of people, even if two of the groups are related.

Every group lease I was in on were already established groups that I was invited to join, that already had a spokesperson in place.

Good Luck and I hope things work out for you.

I would try to communicate these concerns you have given with the others on the lease before going to the landowner first.

He probably won't appreciate someone telling him he needs to lay down more rules or assign a lease manager.

Some landowners don't like to lease simply because of the bikering and hassle of leasing so try to keep him less involved as possible! JMO!

Sounds like this lease isn't a bad place to hunt, and it has plenty of deer so I would try to get on the same page with the others, and if that doesn't work, then this lease may not be for you!

Like someone mentioned earlier, be careful and especially about making a contract, because you might just make the lease too good, and then when the contract is about to expire, the landowner realizes he isn't charging enough for his trophy lease, so you might want to add an extended time clause to that contract, with first rights to renew. Just a thought!

Sounds like either he (lawdowner) should act a foreman or choose a lease foreman to enforce any rules. My lease I was on for three years had a $500 fine for any buck shot not conforming to QDM rules (8 points and outside the ears or an old cull). A guy shot a button buck last year and paid the fine. No one else shot anything small (that we know of.) It is a good deterrent to trigger happy people. Young does taste better anyway. Sure it kept me from shooting small bucks, but I really didn't care to shoot a small one and the fine re-enforces it. But you gotta have enough deer or a chance of actually growing big enough deer to make any type of deterrant worth it. If maybe one deer on the whole 500 acres might grow that big, forget it. Everyone will just get hacked off then since every buck is off limits. As far as making the lease too good, you just have to take your chances. Who doesn't want to make a place better? Issue is it is small enough for the landowner to manage on his own so he can easily kick everyone off.

You may want to look into a place for just you and your father and start fresh somewhere else, and make your own rules.My landowner had us sign a contract and we were all o.k. with his rules, after all its his property, but I don't know where he got it, maybe TPWD can help.Good Luck!

Ahh go ahead and corner the land owner and offer him more money than he is making now and tell him you want it all to your self..

I think if the landowner is charging for permission to hunt, there is a law that requires a written contract...

I would imagine that the landowner views it as leased to one group of six rather than three groups of 2. If so, try having a meeting, work day, cookout at deer camp and work it out with the six before approaching the landowner, I guess what I am saying is see if you can present a solution at the same time you present the problem! That works in a lot of situations.

I may be wrong on this, but from my experience with where we do our Javelina hunts, the only "Contract", states, that for "x" amount of money, the land owner gives you permission to be on the property and the permission to kill the specified animals, and that they can not be held responsible if you get injured. That is about all the law requires. Most states classify it as a Right to Trespass Permit, with the option of killing game or taking fish.

Several years ago a friend that I work with was told two weeks before the season was up that they would have to fork over an extra $20,000 a year starting next year or he would lease to another group. This guy had been on the lease for 10-years with the same guys and they had grown some nice trophy bucks with a feeding program and such. What happened was the landowner got greedy with seeing all the nice bucks and had contracted with a cooperation to lease it for company hunts and such and was going to make a ton of money. My friend and his buddies were upset and checking their contract, had in writing that they could invite guests to hunt after opening weekend. Well you guessed it, everybody brought guests and they shot some very nice bucks........

Interesting reading, BUT...

Let's remember, It was the LANDOWNER who told us not to shoot small bucks. And the LANDOWNER told us two bucks per group. This is just not something I'm making up for the sake of pissing people off.

I'm not really concerned long-term what he does with this property. I'm concerned about continually getting screwed and being stuck shooting managment deer.

When we moved onto this lease, we built new stands away from all the old crappy, falling apart stands, put up new feeders, cleared small trails. I don't owe jack to anyone else there. We put in the work and we saw deer.

If I'm paying the same money as everybody else, I expect to have the same "rules". Or else I want one hell of a discount.

I dunno, maybe I'm just expecting too much of people, thinking they will act responsibly.

Oh, and yes, I purposely left out where this lease is. It's a beautiful area and the fewer people who know about it, the less likely I am to get into a bidding war with someone over it. (Secretly, it's just south of Lake Waxahachie, you should check it out, hehehe!, thousands of big non-typical deer )

Some fool is now paying $4000 to hunt our old lease. 118 acres outside Gatesville where we never saw any sizeable deer. Hell some weekends we didn't even see deer.