Agreed you will never kill bird out more than 100 yards but we always have a couple birds every year that make it 100+ yards before they go down and are crippled out that far. It’s like over training for something. You may only get a retrieve of over 100 yards a couple times a year and I want a dog that can do that when the time comes. A dog that only trains on making retrieves 100+ yards can easily get a bird that drops 30 yards out, however a dog that only trains on 30 yard birds rarely can get a bird a couple hundred yards out. The reason for this is their confidence and training. But this is all based upon training methods and not pedigree. When I started to train for hunt test and field trials I would have my gun dog run the same setups. I would usually have to run them as singles for her and she wouldn’t run as straight of a line but no one cares about that when hunting.

There is NO reason why a responsible and ethical breeder would not test their breeding stock for EIC AND the other health issues within the breed. Some on this board say that their breeding stock is not heavily field bred and they have never had a problem....so why test??

That is not the way they should think... I have a conformation bred dog that is an EIC carrier. If I didn't know that and assumed because he was not field bred, he shouldn't be tested and decided to breed him to a bitch of unknown status, then I could possibly be producing affected puppies out of ignorance....

That would not be responsible of me? Would it??

Field trial lines have been crossed with regularity with show lines and that accounts for the presence of EIC in both.

We keep going back to the issue of testing and resonsibility, but I have yet to have someone justify the breeding of KNOWN EIC carriers. What is the point in the testing and the claim that it is being done 'in the interest of the breed' if the breeder is going to go ahead and pour more EIC carriers into the gene pool? Yet, that is exactly what they are doing.

If people are all informed about EIC and CNM and test their dogs then we can make sure that no more EIC or CNM affected dogs are produced. I have people ask me all the time what is EIC and CNM and why do your pups come with a hip and eye guarantee. I inform them about it all and educate them. So when breeders are listing in their ads that a dog is an EIC carrier this is being responsible because they are putting it out in the open. So if someone who doesn’t know what EIC is they will probably ask what does it mean that your dog is a carrier and then they can become educated about the issue.

As I stated previously EIC testing is new compared to hip and eye testing. I think hip and eye certification should be standard for a responsible breeder. However what’s different about hips and eyes and EIC and CNM is you can’t guarantee you won’t produce a dog with hip and eye issues even with clearances. You can go to OFA’s website and look at the statistics, but you can breed two OFA Excellent dogs and still produce a pup with hip problems. But you cant breed an EIC carrier and an EIC clear dog and produce an EIC affected pup.

You know I am an avid duck hunter and the only time I ever have to get a duck that is more than 100 yards is when the wind pushes it across the pond or something. In 98% of those situations a dog would have been able to get to the duck after only about 50 yards. I do understand for geese as they tend to sail and are harder to bring down. For ducks however, you will NEVER kill a duck at 100 yards which is pretty much the simulation you get at hunt tests from what I have seen on YouTube. Plus like what was stated previously, as a hunter I need a dog that is able to sit still and quietly in less than ideal conditions for up a couple hours (yes we do get up and stretch and walk around when nothing is flying so the dog would get stretch time too) and remain still when all of a sudden a group of 100 teal come cupping in out of no where.

Computer was down, so I am just now trying to catch up with all this. My dog does just as well hunting as he does in the tests. He is very successful in both and is very experienced in both. You can't ask for a better dog. Taking him to a test is like taking him to the park to throw the tennis ball, he loves it. It is fun for him. It is practice for the hunting field too. Just like we practice in sports. We don't practice by just playing, we practice with scrimages, training, drills, etc.

I with dmax and TG37. Plus, I have seen the "country" lab. Or the "hunting" lab. In fact, one of my best friends has a lab from "good hunting stock", "years of proven hunters by hunters" and we are lucky if the dog so much as looks at retrieving anything. I have trained and seen plenty of these country labs come into the kennels. I rather take my chances with the pedigrees personally. No doubt there are country dogs out there I would love to get my hands on, finding them is hard. Here and there I see dogs that I want to get ahold of, but just like my dog, they don't campain them, so no one knows of them. However, just like anything, there are pedigrees I won't touch that other people want. So to each their own, what it really boils down to is no one is right or wrong, everyone has their own opionion. Everyone desires what fits their opinion, what they like, and what fits their personality. Some like dogs with pep, some like dogs that are easy going. I like the smaller dogs (50-60lbs) and others like the big 80 to 100lb dogs. There are pluses and minuses to each.

Eric W.