[quote=bust'em-n-dust'em]if you shoot all the spikes, whats left to grow into bucks.

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all of the other young bucks that are 4pt 5pt 6pt 7pt 8pt deer..and so on that are the exact same age as the few spikes....

well if the spike is older like those "4pt 5pt 6pt 7pt 8pt deer" then sure, cull them out

this year i have laid eyes on several spikes but they are in their first year

As most are!

this thread is the reason for my signature

I woulda hated to have been the spike to get in my crosshairs at the end of this sorry season!

Here's a few pics of a buck I've been watching for three years now. Note the injury to his right front leg. Now just a swollen area on his lower leg. He started out as a spike. Is now 3.5 years old. And is showing some good potential for an E.Tx. buck.

Here's one of the big issues I have with our neighbor's management strategy. This is from Dr. Kroll's article my brother posted that started the thread.

"There is yet another problem. We conducted computer simulations that took into account the natural year-to-year mortality of bucks, and culled them with various numbers of points as yearlings. And we found that if we culled all yearlings that did not have at least 6 points, we ended up with NO mature bucks! So, whether our research is valid or not, it really doesn't matter. Culling young bucks makes no sense, regardless of their antlers"

There's been a tremendous decrease in the number of bucks we see, period. The reality is that we are NOT a high fenced ranch. I would much rather have an opportunity at more mature bucks, whether they are an 8-point or whatever, then to never see many bucks. My opinion, and management strategy, is that the more deer you allow to reach maturity, the more "trophy" bucks you are going to produce.

Ok, I agree that not all spikes are culls... but even TPWD research shows that most are... why bash someone for taking a legal deer. if you don't, fine, but that don't make it wrong for someone else. (I haven't ever shot a yearling spike, so don't come back with "shoot everything that walks" crap).

The whole competition for bigger antlers thing is out of control in my opinion. If you want to do that, cool, but don't expect everyone else to change to that idea too. Yeah, I want to kill a monster someday, but I am not going to come down on someone for whatever they kill that is legal... just can't do it.

IMO there is a reason you don't see very many 2.5 to 3.5 yr spikes, its because the .5 and 1.5 grow out of it....Kill em if they hit 2.5 and have curve to the spike and older, let em walk if they are young, not much meat anyway, and a waste of a tag....JMO

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but the lil bit of meat u do get is mmm mmm good!!

hey as long as your happy but i know a wildlife biologist here in the hill country who manages a couple of deer breeding projects who says he's watched many many spikes turn into 180 class deer... plus you should be able to age a deer by his body not horns and know to only shoot mature deer or 3 year old or older freaks.

there is no such thing as a 180 class buck where i huny lol 120s are giants to me lol

Yep, those young ones are good and tender. I will bust one for some good steaks. Young or not, I have to many young deer with better horns. I will let them get some age, but will nail a spike if I feel like I need some more deer steaks. I busted a young on Last Friday with my .44 mag pistol at 71 yards. I'm sure it's going to be delicious!!!

Thank you!

SO WHY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DOES TPWD ALLOW MOST NE TEXAS COUNTIES TO SHOOT SPIKES? WHY DO THEY THINK KILLING FOUR DEER INSTEAD OF ONE HELPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's Dr Godlike Kroll himself saying we don't need to shoot the spikes, but by gawlly gee they changed them there restrictiones to allow every body to shoot the first one they see.....

Yeah, that makes sense.

Either TPWD is right don't shoot the spikes, or TPWD is right, it's ok to shoot the spikes... can't have it both ways, a man can't ride two asses...

The spike I shot this year tasted real good and I didn't have any moral issues shooting it! Hey the biologists must know something if they say I can take one.

You can't tell the potential at 1.5 years and you sure can't tell at .5 years. People with common sense get this. We have covered this before. The state has to put something in play to allow for mgmt. The average hunter does not seem to be able to age deer or doesn't care and shoots the hell outa every spike they see. Just like every deer that qualifies for AR. I am pretty sure some will shoot a fawn of the nipple if given the chance. They simply hold themselves to its legal. After they get done shooting everything that moves on their places they scream there are no deer. Go figure.

Well neither are there where i hunt... that really wasn't the point... i guess i'll put it simpler if you let the young bucks get old and give them a chance there's a good chance you will have more big bucks wether they be 120 180 or 200 class deer it just makes since you really don't have to be a biologist to figure any of this out

A spike at 2 1/2 years needs to go.

you know killemall gotta agree with you i mean these guys who shoot these deer with milk on the lips are kinda ignorant well i shouldn't say that because they do know better but it's better than saying stupid... anyways hunting brings upon a responsibility to be a responsible human and let these deer reach at least breeding potential so you have more deer now i know you have to shoot freak bucks and you have to shoot does but a smart man takes the older ones that you know are goin to be freaks or an older doe that will be killed by natural causes but then again all real hunters can do is keep being responsible and setting an example... but hey those ones with milk on there lips are easier to shoot they're not as careful.

I have a few 150" that where spikes for two years before they grew up. We don't shoot spikes it's against the law on our place unless it's 3 1/2 then it goes down. May as well shoot all the 4pts that don't have better horns the 2nd year as well if you shoot the spikes just glad I am not on some of these leases.

i like the way you think

Well in our county tpw lets people shoot the mommas and the babies and lets you legally kill 4 deer a year in a county that shouldnt allow more than 1 a year. TPW are morons as far as im concerned they pretty much wiped out our deer herd in 4 years. They need to change the bag limit to 1 buck or 1 doe and would like to see a 13in spread or greater. I am a meat hunter first and horns second but 4 deer and 2 bucks is way more than we should be able to kill. We need to leave the spikes alone or 1 buck limit not 2. JMO.

I asked the GW that stopped by the farm earlier in the season about this very thing. He said it was to allow people that are just meat hunting to be able to kill a deer w/o forcing them to "trophy hunt". Keep in mind we don't get doe days in Freestone County, and LAMPS is stingy with permits.

I kinda think, that being the case, that they should make it an either or, not both. Cause now someone can shoot a spike early, and then still pop a 13" or better deer later. This in a county that's been 1 buck for my whole life. And somewhat rightfully so, since the population is spotty and numbers aren't distributed well.

So now a hunter can potentially take two bucks, but only 1 or often no doe at all?

It just confirms my idea that TPWD are in fact a bunch of idiots and just making rules up as they go along.


Jay

Ok, I'm going to attempt to not ninja this thread, but I'd like to explain a little more of my "encounter" with my neighbor cause it still applies to the spike debate.

One of the issues that was brought up was the fact that we shot four nice, mature bucks last season (2 8's, a 9 and a 10). My neighbor was screaming at me that we were "killing all the BREEDER bucks". Ok, these are low fence ranches. You want to talk about "breeder bucks"? My response to him was that we had been seeing about 15 shooter bucks on the trail cameras with lots of great up and comers. His response was that "trail cameras don't count". Ok... I get he is old school, but trail camera surveys don't count????

Ok, here is where I tie this to the spike debate. He shoots every buck, regardless of age, with less than 6 points. Those "breeder" bucks he refers to were simply MATURE bucks. I guarantee you most if not all of them had less than 6 points as yearlings and it is highly probable that at least 1 of them was a spike. So basically, his "Breeder" bucks are the same deer as his "cull" bucks. It just doesn't make sense and it makes me crazy.

I'd like to think that he is the minority on this issue, but now I've found out that my other neighbor is debating high-fencing our adjoining fenceline because we are "killing all his deer". 4 freaking bucks out of the 100's of deer on our ranches and you are going to high fence me off??

My brother in-law said it best. "David, deer are like gold now. Gold breeds greed and envy"

I will not shot spikes.. I could careless if anyone else does, I will not shot a hard horned buck under 5.5 years regardless of antlers... I could care less if anyone else does.

I personally beleive culling deer on LF to change genetics is BS. Now if you want want to call it a management deer and say at 5.5 years its not going to get much better and would rather feed your better bucks...cool!!!! Makes more sense.

If you think you should cull for genetics cool. Your place your money. As far as managment everyone wants to start out with Culling for genetics...cool knock your self out, but why not first figure out how many deer you have and how many you can support then start your management program from there.

Could care less how other people manager thier deer. I have my practices and opinions so I'll respect others in thiers.