I spent this opening weekend helping TPW collect Bio data from deer harvested. The News was a little unsettling, the majority of Bucks taken, probably 50+% where 1.5 years old. Some that where 8 points and had a world of potential. Of the remaining 50%, 50% of those where 2.5 years old. During the weekend we saw 1 5.5 year old buck and 1 5.5 yr old doe. The even more there was only around three does checked in. WE COLLECTED DATA FROM 175 DEER! . I was really disappointed when a man showed up around 7 pm on sun. With a six month old nubbin buck (6 mo old) that was shot in Anderson County. The deer was not tagged nor did he have an antler less permit! I thought that the majority of hunters really did care about conservation and the bettering of all wildlife, I was wrong... The data dose not lie!

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if they had antler restrictions in every county.

Was this data that you are reporting from one county, multiple counties, state?

What we think, and what actually is, is two different things.

Not all hunters participate on forums. Not all hunters are interested in improving the deer herd, they are interested in killing a deer.

What you did this weekend, would probably be an eye opener for a lot of folks if they had the opportunity to do the same thing.

Irregardless of what goes on or what is discussed on this or any other forum, bottom line for most folks is that they want to kill a deer.

Look it's simple; not every deer hunter is horn hunting. Some do like the meat! Some only hunt the open so they take what ever comes in range. Can't say what is right or wrong with that logic. I was all ate up with deer hunting in my youth. Spent all my free time at the lease. As I get older I still enjoy going after deer but lets face it. Is deer hunting a challenge for most hunters? Feeders, camo, cover sent etc. It can be more like shopping, hum this one has nice mass, this one is still young let him walk etc. Some love to set on stand and see deer activity. Out west and Central Texas the deer heard is HUGE! Easy to see many animals but say a lease in East Texas you are lucky if you see horns! It's a choice really. TP&W thinks we are better off to restrict some areas to 13" rule. Well they have all the data and science behind that ruling, but what does it really accomplish? Make a better, bigger buck so the out of state folks will pay big dollars? Or does this help to insure we have breeding age deer to keep deer numbers up? There is no simple answer to any of this.

Your somewhat correct TH. Kinda like saying duck hunting on public land is a challenge

the data was compiled from deer taken in a
region in central/east texas.

You're right TH but it affects me as a horn hunter. I guess I get a little selfish at times but I figure if you let the 1.5 year old 8 point deer you'll start seeing more 3.5 year old 10 points and above.
All that would do is give landowners a reason to raise their lease prices.

It may affect you as a horn hunter, but do you care how the regulations affect someone several counties away from where you hunt that isn't interested in horns.

I am not saying the regs are a bad thing, as far as the intention to improve the age structure of the deer herd, but is it a good thing to penalize people that are just interested in shooting a deer so that the horn hunters can get what they want?

Personally, I love the 13 inch rule. People that aren't interested in horns can shoot a doe if all they want is the meat. I hate hearing the stories of people only shooting bucks regardless of the size.

I drove over to the local processing facility on Saturday to see what was coming in and what affect the 13 inch rule was having on Coryell county. The processor said that the numbers were down so far. I did see a 6 point that someone had brought in that was maybe 8 inches.

JUst knowing that the regs are in place, keeps me from doing it, but I generally abide by the law (hush Redneck...). But, many will not. We will, we won't like it, but we'll abide by it. I personally don't think there will be many 2.5 year old deer in NE texas next year...cause most of them are gonna get shot as spikes this year...and next...and next...and I don't see how that helps the deer herd, age structure or horn size.

I do agree that if it does, the price of poker and deer hunting will go up, and take more of us middle class working men out of the game.

I saw the proposed list for the next expansion, to cover a lot of North Central counties, including Archer and Baylor where we hunt out west. And HUNT Co is not even covered under the current rule/reg. 'Splain that one to me Wicky!

I think if you will get one of the Outdoor Annuals, and do just a little looking, you will find out that in some counties, with or without the Antler Restrictions, hunters can't kill a doe unless they have a permit, that usually means the hunter has to be hunting on an MLD or Lamps property. Not all counties have an open period to shoot does. One of the counties that was mentioned in the original post was Anderson, where they have neither Antler Restrictions nor open doe days.

In the counties that have the AR's, where a second buck can be killed or where does are legal either all season or some part of the season, the regulations are more accepted.

I know that many hunter take deer that are really too small to yield a good amount of meat or have sub standard horns for the trophy guys. I do wonder if the generally bad weather in the state played a factor. I think many who were antsy or had a weekend lease only shot what they could. I had a big buck play hide and seek all weekend. But with the conditions he really had no reason to get near me, which I believe was more the norm with the conditions as they were. I would like to see how things go when rut and weather turn more favorable. I know it won't fix it all (there is no fix for stupidity)I do believe there is no benifit to shooting a small no horn no meat buck or doe

Thanks for the information. See if you can get some more...

Did TPWD do a survey of the age of the bucks that are still alive? (no)

Do they have a benchmark (starting point) of the buck age structure from which they subtract these (young) harvested deer? (no)

Do they do their surveys during the rut?

How do they reach thier conclusions that too many young deer are being harvested?

Are there too many young deer in the herd, thus the high harvest numbers of young deer?

Do they take into account hunters choice of harvest?

Do they have a target age structure that is detrimental ?
....to the healthy herd?
....to the meat hunters?
....to the horn hunters?
....to the general hunting community?

Do they survey living age structure, to verify that taget age structure is met?


Phish-TX

PHish,
I am not following your logic? Do you think most people would prefer shooting a mature or young deer? The high number of young deer killed is because that is what is out there? The 13 inch rule will hopefully change this trend.

Just asking questions.

Can't answer "what most hunters prefer to shoot." That is a personal hunters decision. Could be anything from first time hunter, kid, new hunter, limited days to be in the field, want to make sausage this weekend, let it mature, believe in "once a spike...", want to cull a rag-horn, etc, etc,

I don't believe THAT aspect of hunting should not be regulated to favor one over the other. (horns regulations)

Personally I let 'em walk 'til 5.5 - 6.5 yrs.

Quote:

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The high number of young deer killed is because that is what is out there?

---

Why can't the high young deer harvest mean there are too many young deer?

There is NO DATA to say what is still "out there". The data only speaks to what is NOT out there anymore.

Phish-TX

Good points by all.

Three years ago, I stopped letting all of my friends come and hunt my land. I wanted to see what would happen if we didn't shoot any deer. I gotta admit that they and I probably didn't make a big dent in the deer population. However, we really are seeing bigger deer. It may be that bigger deer don't consider us a threat. Or, it could be that I got rain just in time to somewhat salvage a wheat crop and am thus seeing more deer. I've also seen some really nice deer that we didn't shoot as spikes. A couple of them are recognizable.

I understand that a guy who rents the land really wants to take something home. A day leaser is under even more pressure. Those things make $ sense to me.

However, like in fishing, they don't grow too well in a skillet. And, people who say they prefer to take a runt are pretty scarce.

this is the reason i stopped hunting in east texas

Most people just want to shoot a deer.

I have seen these 2 questions on deer hunting surveys I have been looking at for the past 30 years from all across the U.S.

1. Do you want to kill a deer. That one always comes in at 100% of the participants voting yes.

2. Do you want to kill a trophy deer. That one usually comes in at around 85 to 90%.

Fact of life is all hunters do not operate under the same set of individual standards if given the choice. We all don't have the same goals or outlook on life, that is why regulations are such an important part of game management. The AR's are designed to protect the younger bucks, but for what real reason? To actually increase the overall age of animals in the herd, or produce more animals with trophy potential? How many 2.5 to 5.5 animals are still out there running around putting their genes into the herd yearly that even with the best nutrition would never make it to the 13" or wide size. While all of them may have the genetic potential, not all of them will ever reach the limits of that potential.

To me this whole issue turns into hunters passing judgement on each other about what they want to shoot.

Allen, How did you age 'em ? Teeth?

FYI that is only 42% accurate. Sure it is the best way they have, but 42% ???? And then pass regulations on it something that could be 58% inaccurate ???

TPWD shouldn't have messed with the current (past) system.

Buck deer hunting has turned into $$ Big Bucks $$ in Texas. If someone wants to persue the big bucks with big bucks $$ them let 'em. They need to pony-up if they want their pic in a magazine with their buck, or want a Jacket, or B&C/P&Y bragging rights, etc.

DON'T EXPECT THE STATE TO MAKE A REGULATION TO PLAY THE BIG BUCKS GAME, at the expence of any other hunter in the state.

Sad state of affairs when our state wildlife management agency caters to one segment at the expense of another. What happened to putting the wildlife/resource first and foremost?
State wildlife managers have morphed into politicians. What hapened to folks with backbones/integrity to stand up and say... "No" to special interest? Instead of useing flawed biology/science, and statistical manipulations, to promote an agenda.

State Wildlife Management should not be a political undertaking.

This is pure politics and pandering to special interest. It has nothing to do with wildlife management.

Maybe I'm 42% correct,

Phish-TX

Here we go again with the trophy management plan again, and how the state did all this just for the money.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the real reason the state implemented these antler restrictions was to reduce the hunting pressure on buck deer, and It's been documented over & over again in every report I've seen. As for improving the age structure, I think that's BS. I think they felt that hunters would be more receptive to that goal than reducing hunting pressure. Afterall, it's easy to state your goals after you've conducted your study now isn't it. How many of you guys hunt East Texas public land? It's crazy how many hunters you'll run into hunting all the public land in East Texas. We have the Davy Crockett National Forest, Sam Houston National Forest, Angelina National Forest, and a large number of WMA's to hunt. Most of these counties were already 1 buck counties because of such intense hunting pressure. What else could they do? They can't tell you that you can have 1/2 a buck can they? Would you prefer some sort of drawing? That's how they handle doe permits on the public lands. How would that go over with buck tags?

As for the rest of East Texas, it's mostly small tracts of land with many hunters.

I understand some of the mandatory management argument. I do think it is motivated in part by money. If you don't think the high fence multi-billion dollar industry has more than their fair share if input, then you’re part of the multi-million dollar crowd because it does by virtue of how important these decisions are to them. While I agree with some form of AR's hunting pressure I'm not sure is the reason. The number of deer hunters is at an all time low. The number that tag out is at an all time low. Deer are at an all time high. So there might be many reasons but deer numbers are not the reason. I will admit I don't have a better plan and I don't believe there is one that will make everyone happy. Educating hunters and helping them to understand the importance of shooting the right type of deer (age etc..) is the only way to win. A course that’s about what and when to shoot a deer before you get a license might not be a bad idea. I would hate to sit through it but if it meant deer were managed better I would.

let me start out by saying im pro ar but one thing does upset me is all of the people saying that they are meat hunters are upset shoot a doe shoot a doe shoot a doe besides if you let the system work then you would have to agree that a 4.5yr old buck is going to have alot alot alot more meat on them than a 1.5yr old buck besides were all upset that the state is regulating us but this is one of the few states that all you have to do is buy a license and go have the chance to harvest a deer in alot of states you have to apply for a license to have a chance to have a chance to harvest a deer all and all we dont have it that bad sorry if i upset anybody i agree their are holes in the reg but im still proud to have the opportunity to get in the woods year after year and even in east texas where you may not see a deer in several hunts i wouldnt trade anything for being able to just be in the outdoors my point is be happy with what you have not bicker about what you dont we are all lucky

I'm told that Hunt co. was over hunted in the early 1900's and had no season at all from like 1940 to 1990.Then it was a 9 day season for several years(when I hunted there) til what you have now.

I personally like the idea of taking more does out of the herd. The buck to doe ratio in most of freerange Texas is way out of whack. Management of deer herds in Texas for better deer isn't going to be solved by the 13" rule alone. It may be a start but with the over population and inbreeding that takes place in the hill country, it's not going to do much good.

I can understand why a guy wants to shoot a big racked buck, but why are so many people against shooting does? I once met a farmer/landowner that wouldn't let you shoot HIS does because he thought his herd would suffer. I think that proper management practices should be on a county by county scale or region by region. What works in one area may or may not work somewhere else. One thing is for sure, our deer herds in Texas need managing, and it has to start somewhere.