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Too much protein?
#6545857
11/16/16 12:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,042
tlk
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I have read a few places that if a deer herd becomes too dependent on protein and less dependent on natural browse that when a drought hits it can cause severe issues with the herd. Is anyone aware of such a thing and what could the impact actually be?
You can't fix stupid
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6546037
11/16/16 02:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,645
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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I know this happens with farm animals. If you raise an animal in a pen, or in a small pasture with feed, they don't learn to properly forage and will starve or at least not do well when you remove the food source. Case in point, I bought two young Angora nannies in high school from a breeder that had many animals and a small place. I fed them through the show season, then turned them out with the herd. One died within 2 years and the other lost a lot of weight and was unthrifty/unhealthy for nearly 3 years before finally being a decent range animal.
I don't know that a wild animal would have that same problem unless you feed a lot and carry too many animals for the land. I suspect deer have enough native instinct to not rely solely on protein. Fawns won't be pen-raised, and will learn to eat browse/forbes with mom long before they see a feeder.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6546039
11/16/16 02:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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redchevy
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I would only assume that if the animals are that dependent on supplemental feeding you are also over what the natural carrying capacity is.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6546636
11/16/16 08:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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I have read a few places that if a deer herd becomes too dependent on protein and less dependent on natural browse that when a drought hits it can cause severe issues with the herd. Is anyone aware of such a thing and what could the impact actually be? Natural food choices are tiered in value. When feeding heavy protein the top tier sources are utilized more then bottom end. When drought hits although they will still forage(it will be mixed tiers) but their supplement intake will increase and you pray it's been well researched and document in sustainability in drought conditions Biggest thing with drought is more focus on supplement protein. If supplement protein is well balanced with roughage and fiber you don't see any adverse effects. If it's not bad things happen. Wildlife feed and domestic feed from major brands has been well researched in these areas. After all they have had decades of experience in it Atleast what I've read and been told
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6546693
11/16/16 09:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 21,271
SniperRAB
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If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...
They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...
Kinda over thinking it a tad
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6546748
11/16/16 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,126
kdkane1971
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There's no way supplemental feeding would supplant their natural instincts to forage. These animals are hard wired to survive and are in no danger of becoming overly dependent upon supplemental feeding like domesticated animals.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6548426
11/18/16 12:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,685
Walkabout
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A mature whitetail is the most aggressive foraging eating machine you will ever see ; day and night. They are pretty good at it.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: kdkane1971]
#6552742
11/21/16 03:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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There's no way supplemental feeding would supplant their natural instincts to forage. These animals are hard wired to survive and are in no danger of becoming overly dependent upon supplemental feeding like domesticated animals. You are correct if you stop feeding , but when you continue supplement feeding in heavy drought years(intake will increase) you need to make sure your feed is properly balanced. Kind of like sending cake, protein bars, steaks etc to a starving children in Africa. Their stomachs can't tolerate it. They need certain trace minerals, roughage etc. why it's important to use a well researched feed in drought years.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6558314
11/25/16 05:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,685
txbobcat
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Definitely a lot of ranches now that are pretty much feedlot situations. Some feeds even advertising crazy quantities of feed eaten. As long as you keep the feedlot operational I guess your ok. If you stop paying the feed bill you will be in trouble.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: txbobcat]
#6558608
11/25/16 11:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 21,271
SniperRAB
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Definitely a lot of ranches now that are pretty much feedlot situations. Some feeds even advertising crazy quantities of feed eaten. As long as you keep the feedlot operational I guess your ok. If you stop paying the feed bill you will be in trouble. Won't affect a Texas Whitetail in the slightest bit... Water plays more of a vital role on Deer Population than supplemental feeding
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6558654
11/25/16 11:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 11,915
Simple Searcher
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A drought situation can produce big deer in an atmosphere with high deer populations and ample protein feed. I heard a HFer once complain of too much rain, the deer were eating everything other than the high protein diet at feeders. The antler turn out was lower than previous years.
"Man is still a hunter, still a simple searcher after meat..." Robert C. Ruark
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: SniperRAB]
#6582432
12/12/16 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,685
txbobcat
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Definitely a lot of ranches now that are pretty much feedlot situations. Some feeds even advertising crazy quantities of feed eaten. As long as you keep the feedlot operational I guess your ok. If you stop paying the feed bill you will be in trouble. Won't affect a Texas Whitetail in the slightest bit... Water plays more of a vital role on Deer Population than supplemental feeding Dang sure will if you turn off the feed on these 300 acre HF ranches with 100 deer on them! Lol
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6583000
12/12/16 01:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 641
Buck25-06
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How much do you feed per year per deer?
I know allot about everything-Everything about nothing!!!!
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: Simple Searcher]
#6583305
12/12/16 04:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 909
driedmeat
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A drought situation can produce big deer in an atmosphere with high deer populations and ample protein feed. I heard a HFer once complain of too much rain, the deer were eating everything other than the high protein diet at feeders. The antler turn out was lower than previous years. I have heard this from folks around here as well.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: Buck25-06]
#6583572
12/12/16 07:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,042
tlk
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How much do you feed per year per deer? we are on 9000 acres. We start cottonseed and protein in mid January and shut it off in September. We went through 152,000 lbs of protein and 100,000 lbs of cottonseed. During the season we go through 72,000 lbs of bulk corn.
You can't fix stupid
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6583635
12/12/16 08:01 PM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 686
MoBettaHuntR
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If you are selecting or keeping animals over time that are well suited/superior at and have adapted to learned behaviors of being fed vs foraging eventually that learned behavior can lead to a loss of other actual instincts within the gene pool. Eating of a feed trough will not ever become an inherited trait it is a learned behavior but other traits may be affected positively or negatively. Such as antler size ability to store fat or forgeability. Simply because you are indirectly selecting animals that don't have to forage to survive. So as an inherited trait it can be devalued or minimized however probably not ever completely lost.
In a closed gene pool, over time, in a contained environment it could eventually be problematic. As long as diversity and variation exist or outside influence are still a factor it is less than favorable. Diversity is key to overall herd health in any species. Plus as others mentioned foraging is one of the strongest instincts in whitetails but over the course of 3-7 generations with a lot of animals a lot of inherited traits can be selected for or against in a given population.
-Those who say money can't buy happiness never bought a dog.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6583702
12/12/16 08:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,204
CCBIRDDOGMAN
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No such thing as too much protein.
Haven't had it in years but never spit any out. I am a sucker for happy endings and strapped cowboys.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: CCBIRDDOGMAN]
#6584147
12/13/16 01:55 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,806
Deerhunter61
THF Trophy Hunter
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No such thing as too much protein. It's a big'n but it doesn't look natural...looks more like a steer that a buck.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: SniperRAB]
#6584717
12/13/16 02:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657
colt45-90
Texas colt45
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Texas colt45
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If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...
They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...
Kinda over thinking it a tad this
hold on Newt, we got a runaway
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: colt45-90]
#6584749
12/13/16 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,042
tlk
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...
They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...
Kinda over thinking it a tad this not sure I am overthinking it - I know of several ranches that claim the deer are very dependent on protein - these are not small ranches. I have also heard that during severe drought those same deer could have some issues health wise. Just wondering if anyone had read or heard of that possibility
You can't fix stupid
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6584764
12/13/16 03:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,290
BenBob
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If protein is there, they will eat it and forage. If protein is not there, they will forage. More are going to die during a drought, but protein will also prevent some deaths. Deer are not eating protein 24/7 when it is in there for them. They don't forget how to exist on natural pasture. If that were the case, all deer would die when big protein feeders (hunters) lost their lease and removed the protein. Best case scenario is protein plus good natural pasture, plus food plots, plus etc. There were deer before protein and there have always been droughts.
Tired, Wired, and Uninspired
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6584777
12/13/16 03:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,067
titan2232
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How much do you feed per year per deer? we are on 9000 acres. We start cottonseed and protein in mid January and shut it off in September. We went through 152,000 lbs of protein and 100,000 lbs of cottonseed. During the season we go through 72,000 lbs of bulk corn. I would assume you have a year round water source if you're feeding that much protein? A drought would not affect you if that's the case.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6584840
12/13/16 03:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 21,271
SniperRAB
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If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...
They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...
Kinda over thinking it a tad this not sure I am overthinking it - I know of several ranches that claim the deer are very dependent on protein - these are not small ranches. I have also heard that during severe drought those same deer could have some issues health wise. Just wondering if anyone had read or heard of that possibility I am sure it would change the feeding patterns, we as you have a very extensive Feed Program and have worked with Texas A&M, It's a vital Role but do I think shutting it off would kill them off..No but we are not high fenced, nor do I think it would kill them in a high fenced environment with enough acreage. I don't feed Protein for my Bucks as much as for my Doe Health...just me
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6584849
12/13/16 03:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 21,271
SniperRAB
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We supply water at most of the feed pens to aid with the digestion process and allow for more consumption. We have a section high fenced against a neighboring ranch and we do find several Does hung up in the high parts dead attempting to access the source, to me it's more the water in drought conditions than the feed but I am sure it's a combination.
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Re: Too much protein?
[Re: tlk]
#6584861
12/13/16 03:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,032
Navasot
Hollywood
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Hollywood
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I would say only because your upping carry capacity in a small area when feeding protein steady imo... and I don't mean a few pounds a week I mean 1500-2,000lb feeders that run out within two weeks and always filled up on time... but in reality its not a dependent problem or protein problem its a population problem which exhaust the local browse much faster if deer arnt branching out.. because they will still browse.. they have to
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