Texas Hunting Forum

Too much protein?

Posted By: tlk

Too much protein? - 11/16/16 12:30 PM

I have read a few places that if a deer herd becomes too dependent on protein and less dependent on natural browse that when a drought hits it can cause severe issues with the herd. Is anyone aware of such a thing and what could the impact actually be?
Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks

Re: Too much protein? - 11/16/16 02:29 PM

I know this happens with farm animals. If you raise an animal in a pen, or in a small pasture with feed, they don't learn to properly forage and will starve or at least not do well when you remove the food source. Case in point, I bought two young Angora nannies in high school from a breeder that had many animals and a small place. I fed them through the show season, then turned them out with the herd. One died within 2 years and the other lost a lot of weight and was unthrifty/unhealthy for nearly 3 years before finally being a decent range animal.

I don't know that a wild animal would have that same problem unless you feed a lot and carry too many animals for the land. I suspect deer have enough native instinct to not rely solely on protein. Fawns won't be pen-raised, and will learn to eat browse/forbes with mom long before they see a feeder.
Posted By: redchevy

Re: Too much protein? - 11/16/16 02:31 PM

I would only assume that if the animals are that dependent on supplemental feeding you are also over what the natural carrying capacity is.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Too much protein? - 11/16/16 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By: tlk
I have read a few places that if a deer herd becomes too dependent on protein and less dependent on natural browse that when a drought hits it can cause severe issues with the herd. Is anyone aware of such a thing and what could the impact actually be?


Natural food choices are tiered in value. When feeding heavy protein the top tier sources are utilized more then bottom end. When drought hits although they will still forage(it will be mixed tiers) but their supplement intake will increase and you pray it's been well researched and document in sustainability in drought conditions

Biggest thing with drought is more focus on supplement protein. If supplement protein is well balanced with roughage and fiber you don't see any adverse effects. If it's not bad things happen.

Wildlife feed and domestic feed from major brands has been well researched in these areas. After all they have had decades of experience in it

Atleast what I've read and been told
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Too much protein? - 11/16/16 09:31 PM

If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...

They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...

Kinda over thinking it a tad
Posted By: kdkane1971

Re: Too much protein? - 11/16/16 10:01 PM

There's no way supplemental feeding would supplant their natural instincts to forage. These animals are hard wired to survive and are in no danger of becoming overly dependent upon supplemental feeding like domesticated animals.
Posted By: Walkabout

Re: Too much protein? - 11/18/16 12:44 AM

A mature whitetail is the most aggressive foraging eating machine you will ever see ; day and night. They are pretty good at it.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Too much protein? - 11/21/16 03:53 PM

Originally Posted By: kdkane1971
There's no way supplemental feeding would supplant their natural instincts to forage. These animals are hard wired to survive and are in no danger of becoming overly dependent upon supplemental feeding like domesticated animals.


You are correct if you stop feeding , but when you continue supplement feeding in heavy drought years(intake will increase) you need to make sure your feed is properly balanced.

Kind of like sending cake, protein bars, steaks etc to a starving children in Africa. Their stomachs can't tolerate it. They need certain trace minerals, roughage etc. why it's important to use a well researched feed in drought years.
Posted By: txbobcat

Re: Too much protein? - 11/25/16 05:29 PM

Definitely a lot of ranches now that are pretty much feedlot situations. Some feeds even advertising crazy quantities of feed eaten. As long as you keep the feedlot operational I guess your ok. If you stop paying the feed bill you will be in trouble.
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Too much protein? - 11/25/16 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By: txbobcat
Definitely a lot of ranches now that are pretty much feedlot situations. Some feeds even advertising crazy quantities of feed eaten. As long as you keep the feedlot operational I guess your ok. If you stop paying the feed bill you will be in trouble.


Won't affect a Texas Whitetail in the slightest bit...

Water plays more of a vital role on Deer Population than supplemental feeding
Posted By: Simple Searcher

Re: Too much protein? - 11/25/16 11:40 PM

A drought situation can produce big deer in an atmosphere with high deer populations and ample protein feed.
I heard a HFer once complain of too much rain, the deer were eating everything other than the high protein diet at feeders. The antler turn out was lower than previous years.
Posted By: txbobcat

Re: Too much protein? - 12/12/16 12:55 AM

Originally Posted By: SniperRAB
Originally Posted By: txbobcat
Definitely a lot of ranches now that are pretty much feedlot situations. Some feeds even advertising crazy quantities of feed eaten. As long as you keep the feedlot operational I guess your ok. If you stop paying the feed bill you will be in trouble.


Won't affect a Texas Whitetail in the slightest bit...

Water plays more of a vital role on Deer Population than supplemental feeding


Dang sure will if you turn off the feed on these 300 acre HF ranches with 100 deer on them! Lol
Posted By: Buck25-06

Re: Too much protein? - 12/12/16 01:48 PM

How much do you feed per year per deer?
Posted By: driedmeat

Re: Too much protein? - 12/12/16 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Simple Searcher
A drought situation can produce big deer in an atmosphere with high deer populations and ample protein feed.
I heard a HFer once complain of too much rain, the deer were eating everything other than the high protein diet at feeders. The antler turn out was lower than previous years.


I have heard this from folks around here as well.
Posted By: tlk

Re: Too much protein? - 12/12/16 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Buck25-06
How much do you feed per year per deer?


we are on 9000 acres. We start cottonseed and protein in mid January and shut it off in September. We went through 152,000 lbs of protein and 100,000 lbs of cottonseed. During the season we go through 72,000 lbs of bulk corn.
Posted By: MoBettaHuntR

Re: Too much protein? - 12/12/16 08:01 PM

If you are selecting or keeping animals over time that are well suited/superior at and have adapted to learned behaviors of being fed vs foraging eventually that learned behavior can lead to a loss of other actual instincts within the gene pool. Eating of a feed trough will not ever become an inherited trait it is a learned behavior but other traits may be affected positively or negatively. Such as antler size ability to store fat or forgeability. Simply because you are indirectly selecting animals that don't have to forage to survive. So as an inherited trait it can be devalued or minimized however probably not ever completely lost.

In a closed gene pool, over time, in a contained environment it could eventually be problematic. As long as diversity and variation exist or outside influence are still a factor it is less than favorable. Diversity is key to overall herd health in any species. Plus as others mentioned foraging is one of the strongest instincts in whitetails but over the course of 3-7 generations with a lot of animals a lot of inherited traits can be selected for or against in a given population.
Posted By: CCBIRDDOGMAN

Re: Too much protein? - 12/12/16 08:40 PM

No such thing as too much protein.

Posted By: Deerhunter61

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: CCBIRDDOGMAN
No such thing as too much protein.



It's a big'n but it doesn't look natural...looks more like a steer that a buck.
Posted By: colt45-90

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: SniperRAB
If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...

They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...

Kinda over thinking it a tad
this
Posted By: tlk

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: colt45
Originally Posted By: SniperRAB
If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...

They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...

Kinda over thinking it a tad
this


not sure I am overthinking it - I know of several ranches that claim the deer are very dependent on protein - these are not small ranches. I have also heard that during severe drought those same deer could have some issues health wise. Just wondering if anyone had read or heard of that possibility
Posted By: BenBob

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 03:03 PM

If protein is there, they will eat it and forage. If protein is not there, they will forage. More are going to die during a drought, but protein will also prevent some deaths. Deer are not eating protein 24/7 when it is in there for them. They don't forget how to exist on natural pasture. If that were the case, all deer would die when big protein feeders (hunters) lost their lease and removed the protein. Best case scenario is protein plus good natural pasture, plus food plots, plus etc. There were deer before protein and there have always been droughts.
Posted By: titan2232

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: tlk
Originally Posted By: Buck25-06
How much do you feed per year per deer?


we are on 9000 acres. We start cottonseed and protein in mid January and shut it off in September. We went through 152,000 lbs of protein and 100,000 lbs of cottonseed. During the season we go through 72,000 lbs of bulk corn.


I would assume you have a year round water source if you're feeding that much protein?

A drought would not affect you if that's the case.
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 03:43 PM

Originally Posted By: tlk
Originally Posted By: colt45
Originally Posted By: SniperRAB
If a Deer can survive a leg being blown off or a arrow hanging out...

They will be fine, it's a wild animal with natural instincts ...

Kinda over thinking it a tad
this


not sure I am overthinking it - I know of several ranches that claim the deer are very dependent on protein - these are not small ranches. I have also heard that during severe drought those same deer could have some issues health wise. Just wondering if anyone had read or heard of that possibility


I am sure it would change the feeding patterns, we as you have a very extensive Feed Program and have worked with Texas A&M, It's a vital Role but do I think shutting it off would kill them off..No but we are not high fenced, nor do I think it would kill them in a high fenced environment with enough acreage. I don't feed Protein for my Bucks as much as for my Doe Health...just me
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 03:46 PM

We supply water at most of the feed pens to aid with the digestion process and allow for more consumption. We have a section high fenced against a neighboring ranch and we do find several Does hung up in the high parts dead attempting to access the source, to me it's more the water in drought conditions than the feed but I am sure it's a combination.
Posted By: Navasot

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 03:51 PM

I would say only because your upping carry capacity in a small area when feeding protein steady imo... and I don't mean a few pounds a week I mean 1500-2,000lb feeders that run out within two weeks and always filled up on time... but in reality its not a dependent problem or protein problem its a population problem which exhaust the local browse much faster if deer arnt branching out.. because they will still browse.. they have to
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Navasot
I would say only because your upping carry capacity in a small area when feeding protein steady imo... and I don't mean a few pounds a week I mean 1500-2,000lb feeders that run out within two weeks and always filled up on time... but in reality its not a dependent problem or protein problem its a population problem which exhaust the local browse much faster if deer arnt branching out.. because they will still browse.. they have to



Well Said up
Posted By: tlk

Re: Too much protein? - 12/13/16 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: titan2232
Originally Posted By: tlk
Originally Posted By: Buck25-06
How much do you feed per year per deer?


we are on 9000 acres. We start cottonseed and protein in mid January and shut it off in September. We went through 152,000 lbs of protein and 100,000 lbs of cottonseed. During the season we go through 72,000 lbs of bulk corn.


I would assume you have a year round water source if you're feeding that much protein?

A drought would not affect you if that's the case.


yes we have good water year round spread out evenly over the ranch

my question does not pertain to the ranch I am on - there are others who feed way more protein per acre/deer than we do and apparently are way more dependent on the protein. Our typical buck hits our feeders once per day for under 5 minutes and in some cases twice per day (based on thousands of trail camera pics)
Posted By: HCHunter28

Re: Too much protein? - 12/14/16 04:14 AM

It's a population issue. A whitetail deer will only eat about a 1/3 of its diet from protein feeders. They need browse and forbs. Coons and my Sika deer are a different story. I think Sikas can sit there and eat all day. Sikas eat a lot more grass (about 50% of their diet) compared to a whitetail (about 10%). I feel like my Sikas skip the grass and eat 80% of their diet in protein. We started protein over 15 years ago and put over 40 inches on our whitetails and our sikas gained about 2 inches. Sikas are worthless protein pigs.
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