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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5991742
10/24/15 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 7,179 |
99% of high fences do fit in the definition. It allows a person to raise and maintain the animals within the fence. It says nothing on acreage, and anyone that has raised animals knows the fence has to surround them. I am not saying a thing about high fence hunting being easier or not.
YOU, however chose to veer way off the raisl suggesting that any time a hunter uses ANY tool, not including a fence, it makes the animal he kills insantly livestock. I am pretty sure 99% of the population of high school educated people will disagree with you. I am not cheapening high fence hunting, but you are taking a stance that looks like you believe deep down high fence hunting is not the same as free range hunting, so you want want to cheapen the free range hunt if a hunter uses any tool what so ever. That is just silly. No sir. I did NOT exclude high fences. I just properly pointed out that your chosen tool to enhance your success % was perfectly comparable to a high fence as a similar tool. And typically, when your chosen method is logically and correctly compared to a method you don't prefer, you (and others) choose to try and protect your chosen method. I would submit that standing off at 500 yards or greater and sniping an animal that has no clue you're anywhere around, is not much more difficult (as far as stealth and hunting skills are concerned), as shooting a cow in a pen. It does require shooting skills, but hunting??? Nah. Honesty would force you to agree. But we're not concerned as much about honesty as we are our egos eh?
Last edited by therancher; 10/24/15 01:47 PM.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: therancher]
#5991767
10/24/15 02:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Deflection
You attempted to define livestock as any animal killed with any tool. That is not true.
I bet you would be more than welcoming to let me on your ranch to kill coyotes 1000 yards and in, and you would not care one bit at how ethical it was as long as I made a big pile of coyotes.
Ego has no place here. Definition of an english word does, LIVESTOCK.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5991818
10/24/15 02:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 14,951
don k
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I am glad I don't have a dog in this fight or do I?
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5991922
10/24/15 04:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
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Guys - it's a simple poll ya'll are taking and arguing in a circle One sees livestock as term when you manage animals for human use with a sustainable long term objective. When you regulate size, age, numbers/tags, genetics, etc it falls under the definition. There where 6 subspecies of elk now there are three, with many states being restocked, many states have implemented min age and genetic protections. There is not one defined game animal in the US that doesn't fall under the NA conservative model of being managed for human sustainable use. The other sees livestock as term to describe "level of tameness or lack of wild". Neither will ever convert. So...
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5993593
10/25/15 08:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 11,916
Simple Searcher
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A simple poll, maybe. A skewed poll, yes. The problem is the poll's questioning itself creates its own assumed conclusion (although it doesn't seem intentional). It implies that all HFs are a "pen" it is only a matter of how large. And "pen" is usually a term that anti-HFers use to degrade HFs, regardless of size.
"Man is still a hunter, still a simple searcher after meat..." Robert C. Ruark
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5993605
10/25/15 08:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
It was skewed for a reason, the reasons are obvious.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5993608
10/25/15 08:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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Why didn't you just let it die then?
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: stxranchman]
#5993885
10/25/15 11:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,822
TurkeyHunter
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It was skewed for a reason, the reasons are obvious. This is obviously a very sensitive topic for many. I've never cared whether people hunt, own or offer/guide hunts on high, low or no fence. It makes no difference to me. I've hunted it all and will continue. Likewise it makes no difference to me about what landowners want to do. Be safe, have fun, enjoy a nice hunt, enjoy the outdoors, and spend time with friends and family. That's the important part. I chose the word "pen" based on reading a number of posts over the years and because it was relevant to the poll question. A recent post got me to pondering that specific question. It is not scientific and can be subject to a variety of criticism. So far it's interesting all of the differences in perception. Now I really understand why there is no point in having any kind of meaningful discussions on this subject in an open forum. I hardly ever participated in that debate but followed when it had been discussed. In retrospect I could have added a "none of them" option.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5995025
10/26/15 05:08 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,216
kyle1974
Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 2,216 |
29% of the people..... LMAO
I don't care if that dang HF ranch stretches from here to alaska, it's a danged pen! wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-bulance time.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: stxranchman]
#5995029
10/26/15 05:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 21,271
SniperRAB
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It was skewed for a reason, the reasons are obvious.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5995079
10/26/15 05:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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There is no meaningful discussion to be had on the subject anymore. Here in TX a lot of folks want everyone else to accept HFs as normal/all the same and a lot of folks will never do so.
Both sides may as well get used to it.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5995142
10/26/15 06:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652
Pitchfork Predator
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There is no meaningful discussion to be had on the subject anymore. Here in TX a lot of folks want everyone else to accept HFs as normal/all the same and a lot of folks will never do so.
Both sides may as well get used to it. Let me correct you. The survey shows less than 1% of current members of THF even participated in this poll. There are just a few very loud voices that won't accept it. A very few according to this poll.
Last edited by Pitchfork Predator; 10/26/15 06:29 PM.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5995180
10/26/15 06:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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Of course, some will not.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5995183
10/26/15 06:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 686
MoBettaHuntR
Tracker
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Tracker
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-Those who say money can't buy happiness never bought a dog.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#5995276
10/26/15 08:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,822
TurkeyHunter
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There is no meaningful discussion to be had on the subject anymore. Here in TX a lot of folks want everyone else to accept HFs as normal/all the same and a lot of folks will never do so.
Both sides may as well get used to it. Let me correct you. The survey shows less than 1% of current members of THF even participated in this poll. There are just a few very loud voices that won't accept it. A very few according to this poll. Not possible to mathematically validate such conclusions using statistical analysis methodology. Can only rely on anecdotal observations. TFFers of course can draw their own conclusions. My personal conclusion is there is no point in discussing the subject anywhere.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5995360
10/26/15 08:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13,614
1860.colt
emoji colt.45
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emoji colt.45
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13,614 |
Surrounded by high fence. Will be interesting to see the results. Please try to avoid a brawl.
Acres
When surrounded by high fence... Like everything else... Size does matter...
i'm postaddic
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5995402
10/26/15 09:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652
Pitchfork Predator
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There is no meaningful discussion to be had on the subject anymore. Here in TX a lot of folks want everyone else to accept HFs as normal/all the same and a lot of folks will never do so.
Both sides may as well get used to it. Let me correct you. The survey shows less than 1% of current members of THF even participated in this poll. There are just a few very loud voices that won't accept it. A very few according to this poll. Not possible to mathematically validate such conclusions using statistical analysis methodology. Can only rely on anecdotal observations. TFFers of course can draw their own conclusions. My personal conclusion is there is no point in discussing the subject anywhere. I agree it was a worthless exercise in the first place. But I will disagree with your analysis, as it may logically be the way you see it, but not me. If I were to agree with you on anything, it would be there is not enough participation based on the number of members we have to mathematically validate anything. Hopefully this thread will die now and never come back.
Last edited by Pitchfork Predator; 10/26/15 10:13 PM.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5997094
10/27/15 08:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 735
bull279
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Gotta love such a polarizing topic and the responses to it.
For me, a pen is a small area where animals are held until they are moved to the next step in whatever process they are involved in. A feedlot uses pens to hold and feed cattle until slaughter and processing. A rancher might use a pen to corral the herd so that he can vaccinate and sort prior to release back into the pasture or to move to another location. If you say "high-fenced pen" I am going to think about a holding area for animals until they are moved to another location.
Merriam-Webster defines "pen" as: noun Definition of PEN 1 a : a small enclosure for animals b : the animals in a pen <a pen of sheep> 2 : a small place of confinement or storage 3 : a protected dock or slip for a submarine 4 : bull pen 2
As far as the HF argument, I don't feel that it is sporting for ME to hunt a high fence area. I do realize that others do not have the time or money to build and place deer stands and feeders. Or the the time to continuously check, refill, and maintain the feeders. The HF hunts allow others to provide these services while also providing a higher probability of making a kill. These hunters would not get to hunt otherwise.
A friend of mine guides on a HF and we give him grief about it. When he tells about a hunt and says that he rattled up a buck, we ask him if he shook a feedsack full of range cubes. But he hunts a LF ranch on his own. A HF has its place, although it might not be for everyone, it allows a higher chance for success for someone who otherwise might not get to hunt at all.
Last edited by bull279; 10/28/15 04:41 AM.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
U.S. Army Military Police (ABN) 1998-2003
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#5997140
10/27/15 08:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,822
TurkeyHunter
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I agree it was a worthless exercise in the first place.
It has helped answer my original question so the results have been satisfying so far.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: bull279]
#5997151
10/27/15 08:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,822
TurkeyHunter
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For me, a pen is a small area where animals are held until they are moved to the next step in whatever process they are involved in. A feedlot uses pens to hold and feed cattle until slaughter and processing. A rancher might use a pen to corral the herd so that he can vaccinate and sort prior to release back into the pasture or to move to another location. If you say "high-fenced pen" I am going to think about a holding area for animals until they are moved to another location.
Merriam-Webster defines "pen" as: noun Definition of PEN 1 a : a small enclosure for animals b : the animals in a pen <a pen of sheep> 2 : a small place of confinement or storage 3 : a protected dock or slip for a submarine 4 : bull pen 2
That's absolutely correct. If you do a Google image search on "deer pen" and follow the various photo links it might provide a better idea in relation to the poll. It's only a description, not judging whether it's good or bad, just trying to assess perception.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: 1860.colt]
#5998466
10/28/15 03:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13,614
1860.colt
emoji colt.45
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emoji colt.45
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13,614 |
Figured this thread twas a loaded question... As pappy once said: Tis like an ol smoke pole, ta see who goes off half cocked .... Being a lowfer ... Have never hunted a deer pen surrounded by a HF... My first deer rifle was a Kentucky .45... Even with H-T ta my advantage... As pappy once said: my bullet was stopped by the white-tail of a deer jumping a fence ...
i'm postaddic
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5999046
10/28/15 10:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
madhatr02
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,613 |
All that is being gathered is the personal opinion of a few individuals? Is there a point to the poll or just an attempt to take a controversial subject and stir things up and say we are gathering "information". For what purpose?
Just seems like a cheap shot especially the way the poll is laid out, by voting anyway you are condemning HF. Liberals been pulling this crap for years with gun control. For example: how many rounds do you need in a mag capacity? Any answer serves to prove you agree that there should be a limit and that point will be used against you at a later date.
So my answer is there should not be a definition for a deer pen, but say the correct answer is personal choice as free Americans.
Semper Fi Kevin
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: madhatr02]
#5999216
10/28/15 11:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652
Pitchfork Predator
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All that is being gathered is the personal opinion of a few individuals? Is there a point to the poll or just an attempt to take a controversial subject and stir things up and say we are gathering "information". For what purpose?
Just seems like a cheap shot especially the way the poll is laid out, by voting anyway you are condemning HF. Liberals been pulling this crap for years with gun control. For example: how many rounds do you need in a mag capacity? Any answer serves to prove you agree that there should be a limit and that point will be used against you at a later date.
So my answer is there should not be a definition for a deer pen, but say the correct answer is personal choice as free Americans. I was waiting for someone to ask TurkeyHunter this question, and I'm curious how he's satisfied with the results and how it answered his question from those results. And I agree with the way you see it 100%.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#5999452
10/29/15 01:51 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,822
TurkeyHunter
OP
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OP
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All that is being gathered is the personal opinion of a few individuals? Is there a point to the poll or just an attempt to take a controversial subject and stir things up and say we are gathering "information". For what purpose?
Just seems like a cheap shot especially the way the poll is laid out, by voting anyway you are condemning HF. Liberals been pulling this crap for years with gun control. For example: how many rounds do you need in a mag capacity? Any answer serves to prove you agree that there should be a limit and that point will be used against you at a later date.
So my answer is there should not be a definition for a deer pen, but say the correct answer is personal choice as free Americans. I was waiting for someone to ask TurkeyHunter this question, and I'm curious how he's satisfied with the results and how it answered his question from those results. And I agree with the way you see it 100%. I believe landowners can do whatever they want with their land. Hunters can enjoy all types of properties. Don't worry about other people's hunting or game management practices as long as they are within the law. Likewise, don't worry about how others perceive your hunting style, land or game management. In addition, the whole "my hunting is better than your hunting" discussion you see on the forums is unproductive and belittles the sport. And I'm satisfied with the results.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5999464
10/29/15 01:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483 |
^^^ ^^^
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