What size is considered a deer pen?

Surrounded by high fence. Will be interesting to see the results. Please try to avoid a brawl.

Acres

Once the fence goes up those deer become livestock!

Yeah right...

A pen is a pen by definition. Good luck avoiding that brawl.

What! No option for <10 acres

As pappy once said: When ya talk bout penmanship, mine run outa ink ...

Exactly. I've seen some pretty wild ones up into 10 acres, too.



Good point though, a pen is a pen, no matter how big or small. It's all about mindset and verbiage

I've seen crazy cattle inside a 3' wide by 20' long loading chute, too...

Everyone knows 50,000+ acres will produce more verbiage than 25 acres... Even in a bad drought...

I'm not a hf guy, but have no problem with them or people that choose to hunt in them. That being said I'd hardly call a 50k acre hf place a pen.

Are you talking about soft release pen or the general term for HF haters? I say a lot has to do with terrain and how thick vegetation is. 500ac in jim hogg county doesnt hunt the same way it does in gaines or brewster county.

Really??? All you guys that voted for any pen, how many deer have you shot in a FEEDER PEN?

With your logic, it's the SAME.

I'm not personally against HF hunting, just answering the question. The difference is the deer can get out of the feeder pen, it's not trapped there.

No, it's not. He defined it as HF and simply asked what folks thought. Nothing confusing about it.

I have no problem with hi fence hunting. I don't care for deer breeding, breeder pens, and stocking with outside genetics. In my opinion if your doing more than feeding letting them age and selective culling then its livestock. That's my view doesn't have to be anyone else's.

Yes it is. Because I believe it to be.

Just using the same logic.

My thought is that a pen is where you keep them in a small area, and a pasture is where you let them out to roam freely, even if it's high fenced. It needs to be a small enough area to handle, inspect or catch them easily without causing too much stress to them. Or to breed them with does you are keeping a record of.

That's it exactly. Was wanting to get an idea of how the perception on HF size might measure out in a survey. The HF debate has been discussed on here plenty. Of course it's not scientific but it will be interesting to see how the numbers play out.

So please just be calm everyone and watch how the poll turns out.

In the United States, the term "pen" usually describes small enclosures for holding sheep, goats, and pigs. A pen for cattle is also sometimes called a corral. A large fenced grazing area of many acres is called a "pasture," or, in some cases, "rangeland".

My conclusion is if a paddle boat is not defined as a bass boat which is not defined as a yacht which is not defined as a cruise ship which is not defined as a warship. Then one could conclude a pen is not a pasture therefore only <25 acres would apply.

Some on here would conclude that once Obama (tongue in cheek) puts up a wall to secure our south and north borders, the country would be considered a deer pen.

That's what I'm attempting to asses with this poll. Trying to measure perception regarding a sensitive topic. The poll is not scientific and can subjected to all sorts of criticism. Nonetheless, the results may be interesting.

Cute but not a real quote

How many of you would have lost a herd behind a high fence in recent floods? What about recent wildfires? Thank goodness my neighbors and I aren't high fenced. I bet a news crew would never get permission to go on a high fenced ranch and give a report of loss either. A pen is a pen.

There's ranches in this state that have pens that are 100 acres or more. Goo look at the 6666, the Pitchfork, parts of what was the XIT, the King, ect.

There's also ranches that the whole ranch is less than 100 acres. And yes less than 100 acres can be productive, so I have no problem with someone calling a place that size a ranch. Their definition of a pen will be different than the large ranch's definition.

Figured this thread twas a loaded question... As pappy once said: Tis like an ol smoke pole, ta see who goes off half cocked ....

Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views.

Or exclude 100,000's of acres of public hunting land by definition(islands, city locked, etc)

Golden

LOL!! Right!!

All we can do is hope that this thread has a quick death.

The poll may be easily criticized but the results are still interesting. I based it around a long standing question I had regarding the HF topic and how it is perceived in many different ways. Like you indicate Bobo, one point of view is that all the creatures on this earth are living inside various forms of high fence. But I'm not trying to cover that aspect with this thread. I had to guess at using <50,000 acres as a maximum because I figured anything larger was not relevant to my question.

Not voting is still a valid and helpful response.

The poll and thread is definitely not trying to imply good/bad, right/wrong, ethical/unethical, question landowner's rights, create controversy, acid rancor or butthurt, etc. It's merely a sampling of perception regarding a specific question.

If it gets deleted it would be nice for a mod to take a screenshot of the poll beforehand. I'd be very grateful. I'll try to take a screen shot a little later.

Not really what I was saying. There are 1000's of different public lands under 50k and above that follow under the same ideology of a HF but because they are public, and some being a draw tag some people choose to ignore the reality. So is its either a Pen perception or Access perception. That's all.

Won't get deleted as long as everyone stays respectful of others and those animals from both sides

One guy said "once the fence goes up they become livestock".

Sorry to throw the t#*d in the punch bowl... But as soon as you use all the modern tools like feeders, scents, guns, bows, scopes, food plots, choppers, guides, etc. they in fact become livestock.

The only people who can't see that are blinded by their own ignorant ego.

It's already high fences. We are surrounded by oceans

"Pens"as large as the ones you speak of are usually called "traps" instead of pens and have a series of smaller pens attached to work cattle. I have been to several of the ranches you speak of and those giant pens are traps. Many times to the 6666 and Tounge River.

So I killed a bull elk on Colorado public land, no feeder, no food plot, no scents, no chopper, but I did use a scoped rifle. The bull was born free of any fences and died free of any fences, but according to you he was livestock?

Geez...

Absolutely! You used tools that effectively and artificially shrunk/retarded his ability to evade you. That gives you an "unfair" advantage that is no different than what a high fence does.

I'm sorry, but when you evaluate high fences and scopes as limiting the animals ability to evade you, it really is comparable.

therancher, is this mastodon also considered to be cattle? The Clovis tribe was using a tool to kill it. Sure I'm way outside the box, but the way I read your post the answer would still be yes.

Absolutely. If you use any tool other than tooth fang and claw you are in fact reducing the natural ability of the animal to evade you. "Cheating". Which is "unethical" to some.

Now, do I believe the natural predators such as "Clovis man" or "Dallas Fort Worth man" should worry about "Cheating" their prey? Oh hale no.

I don't care if you kill them with a buick. Just hunt. And don't worry about what method your competing natural predators use.

Livestock are domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food, fiber and labor. 

It says nothing of the way they are slaughtered. "Rasied" would mean a person owns them much like every animal on your ranch. "Agricultuaral setting" would be animals raised on land a person owns or leases and has control of.

Killing any animal using a tool does not make the animal livestock. A fence can make them livestock, but a rifle, bow, speer, rock, or strangulation does not make the animal livestock.

By that definition, 99+% of high fences do not fit your "livestock" profile. Take your pick, but you can't have it both ways.

Are we denigrating high fences because they make hunting easier? Or because they enclose breeder pens? 99+% of high fences are not breeder pens.

If you own 2,000 acres. You charge 10 hunter $2,500 ea. to have the privilege to come onto your land and harvest deer located on your land. They pay you $25,000 to shoot with bow, rifle, spear... They harvest 30 deer using man made tools designed for killing. Then in July a fellow rancher comes to your ranch and buys 30 head of cattle. He uses horses and a helicopter to capture cattle. He pays you $90,000. He then haul's them to slaughter by tools designed for killing. Would both not qualify as "Agricultural livestock setting" your land provided the habitat and you gained the income from the harvest of animals on your land? Just curious

99% of high fences do fit in the definition. It allows a person to raise and maintain the animals within the fence. It says nothing on acreage, and anyone that has raised animals knows the fence has to surround them. I am not saying a thing about high fence hunting being easier or not.

YOU, however chose to veer way off the raisl suggesting that any time a hunter uses ANY tool, not including a fence, it makes the animal he kills insantly livestock. I am pretty sure 99% of the population of high school educated people will disagree with you. I am not cheapening high fence hunting, but you are taking a stance that looks like you believe deep down high fence hunting is not the same as free range hunting, so you want want to cheapen the free range hunt if a hunter uses any tool what so ever. That is just silly.

speaking for myself, the 1% on here that has trouble reading & understanding ya'll... As pappy once said: tis a lowfer, hunt free ranging, never hunted livestock...

No sir. I did NOT exclude high fences. I just properly pointed out that your chosen tool to enhance your success % was perfectly comparable to a high fence as a similar tool.

And typically, when your chosen method is logically and correctly compared to a method you don't prefer, you (and others) choose to try and protect your chosen method.

I would submit that standing off at 500 yards or greater and sniping an animal that has no clue you're anywhere around, is not much more difficult (as far as stealth and hunting skills are concerned), as shooting a cow in a pen. It does require shooting skills, but hunting??? Nah.

Honesty would force you to agree. But we're not concerned as much about honesty as we are our egos eh?

Deflection

You attempted to define livestock as any animal killed with any tool. That is not true.

I bet you would be more than welcoming to let me on your ranch to kill coyotes 1000 yards and in, and you would not care one bit at how ethical it was as long as I made a big pile of coyotes.

Ego has no place here. Definition of an english word does, LIVESTOCK.

I am glad I don't have a dog in this fight or do I?

Guys - it's a simple poll ya'll are taking and arguing in a circle

One sees livestock as term when you manage animals for human use with a sustainable long term objective. When you regulate size, age, numbers/tags, genetics, etc it falls under the definition. There where 6 subspecies of elk now there are three, with many states being restocked, many states have implemented min age and genetic protections. There is not one defined game animal in the US that doesn't fall under the NA conservative model of being managed for human sustainable use.

The other sees livestock as term to describe "level of tameness or lack of wild".

Neither will ever convert.

So...

A simple poll, maybe. A skewed poll, yes.
The problem is the poll's questioning itself creates its own assumed conclusion (although it doesn't seem intentional). It implies that all HFs are a "pen" it is only a matter of how large. And "pen" is usually a term that anti-HFers use to degrade HFs, regardless of size.

It was skewed for a reason, the reasons are obvious.

Why didn't you just let it die then?

This is obviously a very sensitive topic for many. I've never cared whether people hunt, own or offer/guide hunts on high, low or no fence. It makes no difference to me. I've hunted it all and will continue. Likewise it makes no difference to me about what landowners want to do. Be safe, have fun, enjoy a nice hunt, enjoy the outdoors, and spend time with friends and family. That's the important part.

I chose the word "pen" based on reading a number of posts over the years and because it was relevant to the poll question. A recent post got me to pondering that specific question. It is not scientific and can be subject to a variety of criticism. So far it's interesting all of the differences in perception. Now I really understand why there is no point in having any kind of meaningful discussions on this subject in an open forum. I hardly ever participated in that debate but followed when it had been discussed.

In retrospect I could have added a "none of them" option.

29% of the people..... LMAO

I don't care if that dang HF ranch stretches from here to alaska, it's a danged pen! wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-bulance time.

There is no meaningful discussion to be had on the subject anymore. Here in TX a lot of folks want everyone else to accept HFs as normal/all the same and a lot of folks will never do so.

Both sides may as well get used to it.

Let me correct you. The survey shows less than 1% of current members of THF even participated in this poll. There are just a few very loud voices that won't accept it. A very few according to this poll.

Of course, some will not.

Not possible to mathematically validate such conclusions using statistical analysis methodology. Can only rely on anecdotal observations. TFFers of course can draw their own conclusions. My personal conclusion is there is no point in discussing the subject anywhere.

When surrounded by high fence... Like everything else... Size does matter...

I agree it was a worthless exercise in the first place.

But I will disagree with your analysis, as it may logically be the way you see it, but not me. If I were to agree with you on anything, it would be there is not enough participation based on the number of members we have to mathematically validate anything.

Hopefully this thread will die now and never come back.

Gotta love such a polarizing topic and the responses to it.

For me, a pen is a small area where animals are held until they are moved to the next step in whatever process they are involved in. A feedlot uses pens to hold and feed cattle until slaughter and processing. A rancher might use a pen to corral the herd so that he can vaccinate and sort prior to release back into the pasture or to move to another location. If you say "high-fenced pen" I am going to think about a holding area for animals until they are moved to another location.

Merriam-Webster defines "pen" as:
noun
Definition of PEN
1 a : a small enclosure for animals
b : the animals in a pen <a pen of sheep>
2 : a small place of confinement or storage
3 : a protected dock or slip for a submarine
4 : bull pen 2

As far as the HF argument, I don't feel that it is sporting for ME to hunt a high fence area. I do realize that others do not have the time or money to build and place deer stands and feeders. Or the the time to continuously check, refill, and maintain the feeders. The HF hunts allow others to provide these services while also providing a higher probability of making a kill. These hunters would not get to hunt otherwise.

A friend of mine guides on a HF and we give him grief about it. When he tells about a hunt and says that he rattled up a buck, we ask him if he shook a feedsack full of range cubes. But he hunts a LF ranch on his own. A HF has its place, although it might not be for everyone, it allows a higher chance for success for someone who otherwise might not get to hunt at all.

It has helped answer my original question so the results have been satisfying so far.

That's absolutely correct. If you do a Google image search on "deer pen" and follow the various photo links it might provide a better idea in relation to the poll. It's only a description, not judging whether it's good or bad, just trying to assess perception.

Being a lowfer ... Have never hunted a deer pen surrounded by a HF... My first deer rifle was a Kentucky .45... Even with H-T ta my advantage... As pappy once said: my bullet was stopped by the white-tail of a deer jumping a fence ...

All that is being gathered is the personal opinion of a few individuals? Is there a point to the poll or just an attempt to take a controversial subject and stir things up and say we are gathering "information". For what purpose?

Just seems like a cheap shot especially the way the poll is laid out, by voting anyway you are condemning HF. Liberals been pulling this crap for years with gun control. For example: how many rounds do you need in a mag capacity? Any answer serves to prove you agree that there should be a limit and that point will be used against you at a later date.

So my answer is there should not be a definition for a deer pen, but say the correct answer is personal choice as free Americans.

I was waiting for someone to ask TurkeyHunter this question, and I'm curious how he's satisfied with the results and how it answered his question from those results.

And I agree with the way you see it 100%.

I believe landowners can do whatever they want with their land. Hunters can enjoy all types of properties. Don't worry about other people's hunting or game management practices as long as they are within the law. Likewise, don't worry about how others perceive your hunting style, land or game management. In addition, the whole "my hunting is better than your hunting" discussion you see on the forums is unproductive and belittles the sport.

And I'm satisfied with the results.

^^^ ^^^

I agree with everything you wrote. I don't understand how this poll result created this conclusion, but I'm glad it did.

.
In fairness, didn't take the poll... i'm postaddic ...
Being in the 1% of HF posters who didn't do good in English... Ta most a deer pen & high fenced a picture of a zoo comes ta mind...