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585HE
#5085076
04/24/14 12:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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585HE, SECOND LOAD OF CASES IN PRODUCTION.... First load 3 barrels, next 10+ barrels, Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia. It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums. Built by his smith who has a reamer. Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels, Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland..... Mcgowen is making barrels here. There is about 2 dozen guns now done or being done. More being planned.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5119681
05/20/14 05:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Here is picture of first 585HE in TX, a Nef with long barrel mono-blocked into a breach section of the 10ga Nef barrel. He loads it 650gr at 23-2400.. Here is picture of case on the right next to a 505 Gibbs. Any gun that can be set up to feed the Gibbs will feed ours also...Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5147236
06/08/14 03:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads, can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a years pay. Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use on lighter game, for example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each, once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want. There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other caliber over 458. Here are about a third we have found.. Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load, with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1. We got 2 in FBW falling blocks made. The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve metal behind the action shoulders that breach block rests against because of rim. Ours we don't have to and the #1s extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed. Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures. Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine. Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread. It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder. To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%. The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE in it. Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 06/08/14 03:11 AM.
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5147626
06/08/14 03:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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What's the recoil on that Hoss?
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: 585HE
[Re: J.G.]
#5147873
06/08/14 07:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179
Tactical Cowboy
THF Trophy Hunter
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What's the recoil on that Hoss? Bad
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5148215
06/08/14 11:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Depends on gun weight, pad thickness, porting.
12 lb full load 585HE, with 650gr at 2800; is
about like shooting a magnum 3.5" turkey load
in 7 lb 12ga.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5198746
07/12/14 10:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they don't break under heavy loads. And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow, too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of. They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight. And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad. We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good in picture. And more fun shooting, using 4 black powder substtiute pellets under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke, Pictured is 4 54cal pellets under the Minie. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5220433
07/27/14 06:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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In a related 585 caliber size we made the 24ga FH, and lengthened 24ga chamber to 3 inches. The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of 58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are .585-.687" and work in the 24ga case fine. Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases, just get 577NE brass and reduce the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using 3" 577 brass. We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass fits and the regular 24ga 2.5" plastic works also. . Our 585HEhas same overall loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...And any gun that can be set up for Gibbs can feed the 585HE. The long bolt actions work, like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc, and it is tested in break actions and falling block actions.. First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into. Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets. Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed .. . ..
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5260609
08/19/14 01:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a sporting cartridge exemption few years ago. First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the 4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped, and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp. We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat them and put their own headstamp on.. Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago. Third is one with bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that. Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners. These are not old style balloon head junk cases. We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some. Reamer specs all set and in the chambers made with them, the cases extract at the highest pressures. Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP..Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5260764
08/19/14 02:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,179
Tactical Cowboy
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I find this thread purely amazing! What is your price per cartridge?
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5260816
08/19/14 03:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,373
Bullfrog
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Maybe a dumb question but is that safe in the shot she'll casing like that? Or would the chamber be absorbing the pressure?
Even on a brass casing, does the brass contain the pressure or technically the chamber?
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5260818
08/19/14 03:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,373
Bullfrog
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Oh and yes I agree, absolutely gets cool points from me too!
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5267879
08/23/14 04:18 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Oh the chamber takes most of the pressure. We keep the pressures within the limits of what the shell bases and/or gun types will hold.
Like in a NEF, 24ga plastic case we do about 14,000 psi max, but in brass 24ga case about twice as much.The plastic case is the limiting factor on the first and gun style is limiting factor on the second example..
Our 585 cases are $3.70 each and loaded rounds 5 to 7 bucks each depending on bullet or slug used, in volume. Ed.
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5280663
08/30/14 11:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic, long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted. We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work. Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns, without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex. Here is picture of our case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example.. And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing and heading operations in the mfg process. Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads. We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585". Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture. WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies. Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot. Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in. The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below-- Ed www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5296009
09/09/14 05:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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Woodsman
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First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1. If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5296186
09/09/14 12:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,778
ralph
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As a practical round, no. Now, if I was hunting Buicks...
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5296215
09/09/14 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,234
gusick
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I would use it on white tails just to PO the "shot placement" crowd.
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5301033
09/11/14 05:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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AH- but it is a very practical round, aside from dangerous game use, you can use economical, lighter, Minie bullets and similar for deer and hogs, for fun target use, load cases forever, dozens of times. And with longer spitzer bullets, use for long range target use, without buying a real big, expensive bmg action. There are more bullet and bullet combo choices for this caliber than any other over 458.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5310795
09/17/14 03:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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Woodsman
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We have shot the lead Minie bullets through 6 x 6
dried hardwood and little harder alloy ones through old
pieces of telephone poles.
The super hard, heat treated, lead ones,
will shoot through 1/2 inch steel. Very useful case. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5323380
09/24/14 05:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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In the process of checking out all bullets/slugs in 585 size caliber, it lead to the idea of the little brother of our 585HE, a 24ga FH. Very suitable for shotgun only deer areas, with a very effective load. And a huge supply and variet of bullets and slugs. Same rifled bore as our 585HE, same barrels work. And they have big supply of barrels, so we don't wait like for 12ga FH ones. Using brass cases they get loads like 577NE which is same bore. And many guys like idea of 577/585 size without spending 10 grand. 650gr at 2000 and 540 gr at 2200 fps not too bad. And for lighter non-African dangerous game we use a variety of lighter 58cal saboted and lead Minie bullets as well as heavy ones.. First is picture of a Minie bullet with a seal we made from 24ga BPI brushwad, Seal fits up inside the hollowbase of the Minies. We make them cutting BPI brush wads in half, without the cushion. Next picture is of 28cal Hornady ML sabot with .452" pistol bullets of 250 to 300 gr in them for lighter high speed load, for 24ga FH. Nice for deer and target fun. And all these will still shoot in 585HE also. Next picture is idea for the 585HE Whisper subsonic load with long, real, heavy bullets, shown with dummy bullets in the cases. Idea came from an experimenter, Bret in MN, and with a 1600 gr bullet at subsonic 1050 fps gives 4000 ft lbs, a huge amount over other subsonic cases guys have made. And can have subsonic loads with the regular 750 gr bullets also 900gr, 1000gr, 1200gr, etc.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5344589
10/06/14 05:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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Woodsman
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Here is 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock. That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks. Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5361008
10/15/14 05:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over, to our 585HE the strongest yet.
The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the 577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, with black powder, then on to drawn brass cases, then to 577 BP Express. then to 3" cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet diameter ended up at .585". This bore diameter of cartridge guns and muzzle loaders it is real interesting on how they developed and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all over the British Empire, by the millions.
Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have a 24ga FH, a l regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And stamp the cases 24 ga.
For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding reasonable rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, same for 24ga. The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned case made.
Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH, break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case. Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size. So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun. 24ga, with 458WIN power. .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.
Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5380046
10/26/14 12:22 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
OP
Woodsman
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Woodsman
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Here is picture of 585HE, 100 cases a guy got loaded, They are CEB solid nose bullets, and hollowpoints. This bullet is turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. . Here is break action being set up for the 24ga FH. It is done by mono-blocking in a .585"/24ga barrel. With the 3" 24ga brass case running 35,000 psi, a moderate load, with 440gr minie, it gets about same power as some loads in the 458Win. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5380879
10/26/14 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,373
Bullfrog
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You're having all kinds of fun with this. I like it!
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: 585HE
[Re: hubel458]
#5401389
11/06/14 12:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 143
hubel458
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Woodsman
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Woodsman
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Thankyou, yes it is great hobby... Here is a different look at 585-458 sabots holding 458cal bullets. It holds lead as well as jacketed. Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585. I do like Enfields to put our 585 in, and one of the reasons is they have bigger bolt lugs than most, by bigger they have more cross section where the lug is on the bolt body. And the left lug is longer forward so as to support the case, after the bolt face is opened for the bigger case, as the extractor pushes the case to the left. Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB. The here being the US, and with our group here, also having barrels, dies, cases, and McGowen with barrels in stock, CH4D with 585HE dies in stock, shops with # 31 shellholders. And later a few retail outlets setup with cases in stock...Ed .
Ed Hubel
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