585HE

585HE, SECOND LOAD OF CASES IN PRODUCTION....
First load 3 barrels, next 10+ barrels,

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon
be three reamers there.

There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....
Mcgowen is making barrels here. There is about
2 dozen guns now done or being done.
More being planned.Ed

Here is picture of first 585HE in TX, a
Nef with long barrel mono-blocked into
a breach section of the 10ga Nef barrel.
He loads it 650gr at 23-2400..




Here is picture of case on the right next to a
505 Gibbs. Any gun that can be set up to feed
the Gibbs will feed ours also...Ed

We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target
loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay.

Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use on lighter game, for
example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other
caliber over 458. Here are about a third we have found..
Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load,
with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge



Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
We got 2 in FBW falling blocks made.
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours we don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.



Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases
in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%.

The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE in it.




Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. Ed

What's the recoil on that Hoss?

Bad

Depends on gun weight, pad thickness, porting.

12 lb full load 585HE, with 650gr at 2800; is

about like shooting a magnum 3.5" turkey load

in 7 lb 12ga.Ed

We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads.

And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started
using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad.



We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good in picture.



And more fun shooting, using 4 black powder substtiute pellets
under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke,
Pictured is 4 54cal pellets under the Minie. Ed

In a related 585 caliber size we made the 24ga FH, and lengthened 24ga chamber to 3 inches.
The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of
58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are .585-.687" and work in the 24ga case fine.

Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases, just get 577NE brass and reduce
the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using 3" 577 brass.
We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass fits and the regular 24ga 2.5" plastic works also.

.

Our 585HEhas same overall loaded length as a Gibbs.
Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...And any gun that can be set up for Gibbs can feed
the 585HE. The long bolt actions work, like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc,
and it is tested in break actions and falling block actions..

First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into.

Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets.

Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed

..





...

WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own headstamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make
a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.







Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws,
uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not old style balloon head junk cases.



We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs all set and in the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP..Ed

I find this thread purely amazing! What is your price per cartridge?

Maybe a dumb question but is that safe in the shot she'll casing like that? Or would the chamber be absorbing the pressure?

Even on a brass casing, does the brass contain the pressure or technically the chamber?

Oh and yes I agree, absolutely gets cool points from me too!

Oh the chamber takes most of the pressure.
We keep the pressures within the limits of what
the shell bases and/or gun types will hold.

Like in a NEF, 24ga plastic case we do about 14,000 psi max,
but in brass 24ga case about twice as much.The plastic case is
the limiting factor on the first and gun style is limiting
factor on the second example..

Our 585 cases are $3.70 each and loaded rounds
5 to 7 bucks each depending on bullet or slug
used, in volume. Ed.

In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.



Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns,
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of our case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example..



And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper
strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the mfg process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads.





We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.



WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.



The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX
and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below-- Ed

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

As a practical round, no. Now, if I was hunting Buicks...

I would use it on white tails just to PO the "shot placement" crowd.

AH- but it is a very practical round, aside from
dangerous game use, you can use economical, lighter,
Minie bullets and similar for deer and hogs, for
fun target use, load cases forever, dozens of times.
And with longer spitzer bullets, use for long range
target use, without buying a real big, expensive
bmg action. There are more bullet and bullet combo
choices for this caliber than any other over 458.Ed

We have shot the lead Minie bullets through 6 x 6

dried hardwood and little harder alloy ones through old

pieces of telephone poles.

The super hard, heat treated, lead ones,

will shoot through 1/2 inch steel. Very useful case. Ed

In the process of checking out all bullets/slugs in 585 size caliber,
it lead to the idea of the little brother of our 585HE, a 24ga FH.
Very suitable for shotgun only deer areas, with a very effective load.
And a huge supply and variet of bullets and slugs.
Same rifled bore as our 585HE, same barrels work. And they
have big supply of barrels, so we don't wait like for 12ga FH ones.
Using brass cases they get loads like 577NE which is same bore.
And many guys like idea of 577/585 size without spending
10 grand. 650gr at 2000 and 540 gr at 2200 fps not too bad.
And for lighter non-African dangerous game we use a variety of
lighter 58cal saboted and lead Minie bullets as well as heavy ones..

First is picture of a Minie bullet with a seal we made from 24ga
BPI brushwad, Seal fits up inside the hollowbase of the Minies.
We make them cutting BPI brush wads in half, without the cushion.



Next picture is of 28cal Hornady ML sabot with .452" pistol bullets
of 250 to 300 gr in them for lighter high speed load, for 24ga FH.
Nice for deer and target fun. And all these will
still shoot in 585HE also.



Next picture is idea for the 585HE Whisper subsonic load with long,
real, heavy bullets, shown with dummy bullets in the cases.
Idea came from an experimenter, Bret in MN, and with a 1600 gr
bullet at subsonic 1050 fps gives 4000 ft lbs, a huge amount
over other subsonic cases guys have made. And can have subsonic
loads with the regular 750 gr bullets also 900gr, 1000gr, 1200gr, etc.Ed

Here is 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed



Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks.
Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and
others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, then to 577 BP Express. then
to 3" cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of
.570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders it is real interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have a
24ga FH, a l regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the cases 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, same for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned case made.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun. 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

Here is picture of 585HE, 100 cases a guy got loaded,
They are CEB solid nose bullets, and hollowpoints.
This bullet is turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is break action being set up for the 24ga FH. It is done by mono-blocking
in a .585"/24ga barrel. With the 3" 24ga brass case running 35,000 psi,
a moderate load, with 440gr minie, it gets about same power
as some loads in the 458Win. Ed

You're having all kinds of fun with this. I like it!

Thankyou, yes it is great hobby...

Here is a different look at 585-458 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
It holds lead as well as jacketed.



Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.



I do like Enfields to put our 585 in, and one of the reasons is
they have bigger bolt lugs than most, by bigger they have more
cross section where the lug is on the bolt body. And the left lug
is longer forward so as to support the case, after the bolt face is
opened for the bigger case, as the extractor
pushes the case to the left.




Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.

The here being the US, and with our group here, also having
barrels, dies, cases, and McGowen with barrels in stock,
CH4D with 585HE dies in stock, shops with # 31 shellholders.
And later a few retail outlets setup with cases in stock...Ed .

Go ahead, I'll hold your beer.

Anyone in Australia wanting to build one there
are some reamers there now, and dies can be
shipped from the US. Cases available
at Bertram's...Ed

Another application for our 585 HE is for guys with the 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And in a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel can get 650gr
spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads.



I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....



A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our
585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but
with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay
in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..



Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980" ..The 5th, 6th,
7th blanks on bottom are straight 1.375" 585 regular twist blanks.
One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed

If a guy sets up 24ga FH we don't have to make

special dies, a set of 577 Ne dies work,

Got guys doing them in NEF and other break actions,Ed

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs. These have a flat base, and
fairly streamlined..



But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Ed

SOMBODY SHOOT SOME STUF WITH ONE OF THESE AND POST THE VIDEOS!!!

There is video on y-tube of guy in TX shooting

a 585HE gun. We posted pic of the first AUS buffalo shot

with one. Been more. As soon as weather breaks will

do a bunch videos from here in MI..Ed

In Canada there are 3 guys there now setting up 585HEs,
and one setting up 24ga FH. Another friend setting up a 585HE
handed out a bunch of cases and info sheets at the SCI convention.
We are getting some more reamers made. Some more dies sent
here. Another pallet load of cases coming.

Here is picture of a light spitzer bullet in the 24ga FH case,
will work in 585 also. Good for hunting and medium range
target work.



Here is picture of 585HE we did in the FBW with regular two
piece stock.We put a tenon on the forearm to wedge into the
front of the action below the barrel and a tight barrel band
on the front. Ed

Here is comparison of our 585HE and Trex case, and while
we have barrels of cases and more coming and many available
in stock in AUS, many guys with Trex guns can't get cases.



Here is picture of a neat falling block that could work for our
585HE with little work, the Wickcliff.




Here is picture of the singlestack mag box we built for Enfields
fitted to the bottom of BBK action.Very little changing and
it fits a lot of different actions, as a fixed magazine, with its
own feed lips,and we load from the top.Ed

Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.



And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.

Here is one reason to like 585 calibers is bullet varieties,
this picture is only about half the bullets and slugs
we know of, and most can easily found. Ed

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;

Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia, set up

for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed

the first AUS buffalo by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can

go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the

style of a CZ stock, that a guy is setting up. The stock will be finished brown

and metal finished with a Gun Kote finish...Ed

One of the first of modern 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller Greiss Magnum,
was first in records in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585" with a little sharper shoulder..

They rebated the rim quite a ways to fit 98 Mauser bolt.Used a special action.
Listed as a shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when
guys did big wildcats they took what was available, to rework, and maybe
they could have used the 3" spotter case if they could have found a barrel full.

Here is picture of the M&G Mag .Ed

Probably first 375 caliber cartridge made from 585HE necked down, the 375 Warlord.

Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder.

Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters.

First picture I got sent me today off of facebook and this one is from the great sniperforums.





Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE to maybe 2.4", for use Marlins and Henrys,

and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control.

Without a rim that takes up circular space, say like our 24ga FH, but which is perfect for

break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed

Another action we found that isn't priced 3 grand

or more that will work great for our 585HE is the

Stiller bolt action that is made for Cheytac based

cases. Less than 1200 dollars. Compares in size

to the Montana PH actions we have put the 585 in.Ed

Here is picture of 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.



Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.



We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similiar, justa newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter recievers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has our 585 HE reamer on hand, we have
barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny,. if you need long range work.





The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs, etc, Not really, just use one for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...



If we have a welded up Enfield rear bridge, then we can use sight
like on this gun a guy is doing. Has a rosewood laminate stock.
He will have it checkered, sanded, with fancy finish.



Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comp
stock, handles recoil great... Ed




More about 585 BB short case for lever guns, pistols,AR Uppers,
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols....Ed

I was wondering about that. That cartridge in that NEF scared me to death looking at it.

Well the 12ga one is much bigger yet, used in NEF.We tested

them all, 10 down to 24ga, brass and plastic and got the

safe limits figured out.Ed

Here is a picture from the back of a big Lawton action that
our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
for long range shooting.



Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our
585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.





In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.



Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..



Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF




On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed

Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A

Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
the second they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE..




Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed

I feel that Bruce Bertram has done a huge amount for big bore shooting.
Some of you know we worked on the 12ga FH.

We have heard that fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, is

working with Bertram in making order of full length 12ga From Hell cases.

Drawn cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

Any wanting some, and maybe get in on the run, contact Bertram

at the email -- b.bertram1@bigpond.com ...... Ed

Wow. I would like to watch the trace that round makes in my spotting scope going down range. Somebody buy one and let me watch lol. Don't worry about bringing any ammo for me. I'm not shooting it.

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.



The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.

Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.

We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.




Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed



Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,




Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.




Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.




Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..




Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with a variety of bullets..Ed

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.



Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases



Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.



Here is another picture of the 585HE with great looking stock.
Nice looking wood. Ed

Here is pic of Big Lawton action bolt with

our 585HE case in it.Ed

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.




Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed

About the local fellow here making 375 wildcat with our 585 case-


Hello Mr. Hubel,


We just got back on Saturday from competing at the King of 2 Miles Match in New Mexico.


We won! I came in first shooting my rifle (the one I brought over and showed you),

chambered in .375 Lethal Magnum, the round I designed based off of your case.


I’m attaching a bunch of pictures, feel free to post any of them that you want.

I do have one picture of the screen of the camera system looking at the 2500-yard target.

The hit farthest to the left and the hit farthest to the right were my 1st and 2nd shots.



I’m getting more interest in this cartridge now that the results

from this match are spreading across the web.

Happy 4th!

Take care,


Mitchell Fitzpatrick

Lethal Precision Arms

1(989)578-2576



--------------------------------------


Will have pics soon, his case is close to 375 Warlord case

with a shorter neck, and longer to shoulder.

Got guys getting 585HE cases, they all think we have

''the'' case to wildcat... Ed

Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.






That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.






Here is picture of a case a Trex owner made using our 585 brass, by putting

a piece of 11/16 tubing ,cut a piece 2/10 of an inch long with a tube cutter chamfered

the cut side a bit and tapped it on the case down to the belt with the brass pipe

and fireformed it in the T Rex chamber.......Made a perfect fitting case.

Cut our brass to 3" to fit shorter trex specs. He was out of brass

and couldn't find more, so he invented his own. And our rim was big

enough so his extractor still worked ok....His original Trex case base is .685"

and our rim and belt on first case run, is .655" diameter, and base ahead

of the belt on unfired cases .631" and the brass sleave pushed up tight to the

belt just takes up that little difference. Ed.

Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with

Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done.

Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email -----

b.bertram1@bigpond.com ......





Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..


Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).






Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed

Here is picture of Lawton action bolt with our 585 case in it,

and it will do for any necked down wildcats also. Ed

Some are getting interested in extreme long range 375 case

as we just took Mitch over some more 585 HE cases,

two big boxes of them, so he can rework them and

make more hotrod 375s and set up guys with cases, and

guns like his to compete with. Ed

Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.




Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.




I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,

Some info about target 375 wildcats made from 585 HE ,

both about same power,the guy in Alaska with the 375 Warlord, has

released to public domain, he and I will have formed 375 Warlord cases, few weeks.

He has also released the reamer to the public,being made by JGS, so anyone wanting to do

a super ELR rifle, maybe get you a reamer ''now' on the first reamer run at JGS, that way,

so you can get a gun done this winter, with reamer in hand.Ed

I'm doing a test gun for the 375 Warlord to get the right
powders figured out for guys, save them time,
my reamer be done soon.barrel and action ready...Ed

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.


Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,




We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,

Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed

Here is the neck die setup, with inserts for the top that

are set in .020" steps to make the 375HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, There are 4 setups now. Ed

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture








Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed

Here is pic of a couple of our 375 HE next to a little 378 WEA.

Middle- 375 HE case has 330 gr bullet- Right has 400gr.. Ed

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..






Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.




Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.




Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed




Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.



Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..





Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..



Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.



Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..




Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..




More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed




Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..




Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,





A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...




Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed..



https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecisi..._location=group

Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more eneregy...


585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,




Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed




We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..

Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............



Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added



In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .




Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....



Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed

Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from

another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and

it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too

thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..



Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left.

Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed

About 416 cal bullets............

The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1.......

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

Paul Philips was third with a 416...

GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet..

Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED

Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.

It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

1.6" diameter and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

BMG actions.... ED

Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt..





Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

Good pictures............www.585he.cz

We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.

Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

Action worked fine.. Ed.

Here is video of early water barrel test of the

12ga From Hell, from years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk


Here is picture from that video..





Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed

In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

The most impressive thing about this is how you keep updating so many threads on so many different forums. That's a lot of work!

We have help on that..as well as the case work..


Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed

and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed

Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of

Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

He was an esteemed member of the

American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

Being its president in 1992..He liked

working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles

.Worked with guys testing armor long time ago.

Maybe the 1st to do 20mm necked down to 50cal

We lost a great friend,,,Ed

Condolences sir. RIP

.....


It is possible rig up holders for many types setups.,

About shellholder supply for big cases,

RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases

that can work or reworked for big rimmed rifle cases...

Here are various sizes.......

16ga-- .810" rim,........ 20ga-- .760" rim,....

24ga-- .725" rim,....... 28ga .680" rim....

Ch4d and Buffalo Arms also have these larger shellholders...


We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed

surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.

It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..


It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets,

long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



....

Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long barrel is stable enough

for ELR , rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....

.Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,

Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm case....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyabm-cbwgc&feature=youtu.be


HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion

750 gr with 155gr RE17, just a moderate load.....Ed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXAo1mJqw8Y

20mm Vulcan is a big case that works ok, without having

the sides made too thick...They have thinner sides

than smaller cases guys are getting that have the sides

made too thick and won't extract easy or work with high pressures.


Here Barnard P Cheytac bolt that would do for our 416 HSM..Ed......

Got guys doing various 416 HEs..

One just built a 416 HE, just been testing it a few days..

And using 168gr of HBMG 475 gr CEB, tested it, in good

conditions, 2 shots at 1800 yards and was within

a 1/4 of minute accuracy...A few shots at shorter ranges

had same accuracy. Ed..

More about our 416 HSM from BMG brass, and
our 416 HE & 460 HE from our 585 HE cases
Got reamers for 375 HE, 416 HE and 416 HSM,....

460 HE & 460 HSM are all spec'd, got HE reamer
soon have HSM reamer...Our HSMs have a Wea type
radius on the shoulder..

The fellow that set up our 416 HE in an ELR rifle
and got 1/4 min accuracy,
They got some game out west over 1400 yds..
.Here is the gun they set up.
Using a K&P 34" barrel on a BAT action.....Ed

And have got 460 HSM specs setup, the impetus for that is some
asking about one and new great line of 458 bullets CEB now has.

It will hold more powder than the 416 HSM and will get
a 572 gr as fast as 416 HSM gets a 475gr.....Ed..

The guys that did the super accurate 416 HE did another
416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

Used a Stiller action and same load with 475 gr bullet, as in
first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy.
3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.

And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
the cartridge is capable of....Here is print with specs for
the 416 HE reamer chamber ....Ed....

More about he guys that did the accurate 416 HE, they did a
416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

Used longer barrel and the same load with 475 gr bullet, as used
in the first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy,.
3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.

And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
the cartridge is capable of....Here is picture.......Ed....

Here is print with chamber reamer specs for the
416 HSM chamber..There are 3 base sizes we have,
depending on actions used. Got reamers for all 3..
Got cases for all of them..
Our cases are public domain, so that is why I post
info and specs. Manson makes reamers I use,,, Ed.

Here is reamer print with chamber reamer specs for
the 460 HSM chamber .Couple guys getting set
to do 38-40 inch heavy 458 target barrels...Ed....

With 40 inch barrel 416 HSM ,475 gr, get 3650, over 13,000 ft lbs muzzle energy.
Got guys getting set to have 38-40 inch 458 barrels made for 460 HSM.Ed..

More info on this gun, we did it for testing 416 HSM with a rebated rim,
to check in intermediate size actions, with the longer, stronger, bolt lugs, Ed..

Here is experimental action for 416 HSM in a heavy
stock....We lengthened port a little, set bolt stop back ,
opened bolt face fit the 416 HSM rebated rim. Ed.

Here is comparison of Montana PH to Pierce action we
modified to use for rebated rim 416 HSM testing..Ed.

416 & 460 HE AND 416 & 460 HSM .LONG RANGE AND HUNTING
Can be set up in  Pierce  X10  ACTION for the 416 & 460 HE  
AND X20 action for the 416 & 460 HSM , Can get those
if guys need one...Ed

Here is picture of my 416 HSM test gun,... It is a big falling block we had
as a 8 bore years ago. Has a 34 inch , 1 5/8 "diameter, 1 to 10 twist barrel. .. Ed.

Also set up test barrels for the falling block for 460 HSM and our 585 ..Ed

For those following this thread I wanted to share the news that Ed Hubel passed away on Nov 5th. While I never personally spoke with him I have built one gun chambered in his .585 Hubel cartridge.