Optics, not exactly needing 12x to glass a 100 yard feeder or road chum. If you are on a ranch that is doing a doe fawn flip, It’s not your average lessee’s either, and probably only a few people culling.

With that said if it’s a normal hill country ranch, I wouldnt discriminate I’d lay hammer down on every doe we saw, but fawns are better bang for your buck to lower populations, so I wouldn’t discourage

Yeah, makes sense. If there are that many deer that need gone, then it is almost a brown and down type situation.

I have never down played anyone that shoots a fawn though. if it means keeping them interested then so be it. What someone takes legally, I don't care about. My actions are only mine. Their actions are only theirs. Not gonna crap mypants if a buck fawn gets shot thinking its a doe because chances are that one will disperse anyway.....HF situation is a lot different though.

I don't understand the math on this. If you're trying to reduce doe numbers, why is it not better to kill a breeding-age doe vs a fawn? The fawn won't produce an offspring for two years, while the sexually-mature deer should have twins the very next summer. I get that it's easy to target fawns because they're all the same size (and therefore the same age), but it seems like a wasted doe tag to not take a producing animal out. If you have 50 does and 25 doe fawns, and you get 25 doe tags, you can cut next years production by half. Help me understand.

Free is totally correct. We do not implement fines but we make darn sure all our members read and know what the rules are - each member signs a copy of the lease rules every season - there are honest mistakes that can be made but in my experience over many years is that it is not too difficult to determine an honest mistake from a "playing dumb" mistake (like shooting a buck that is on the lease DNK board) - as far as shooting does? Not happening on our place - the coyotes do that too much already

I shot a 154" 10 point on a ranch near Pearsall. They had so many rules you had to be a lawyer to decipher what you could shoot or couldn't shoot.

I paid a $600 fine cuz on the place I was hunting a "legal" buck had to be an 11 point.

This class buck would cost around $7,000 on most hunting ranches.

Who got the best deal?

These rules are stupid, everyone is so scared of screwing up, they pass on everything.

Button bucks are damm hard to tell at 100 yards in low light or even bright skies.

All the experts on here can tell, just ask them

sorry couldn't resist a shot at all our resident experts.

said deer:

"I don't understand the math on this. If you're trying to reduce doe numbers, why is it not better to kill a breeding-age doe vs a fawn? The fawn won't produce an offspring for two years, while the sexually-mature deer should have twins the very next summer. I get that it's easy to target fawns because they're all the same size (and therefore the same age), but it seems like a wasted doe tag to not take a producing animal out. If you have 50 does and 25 doe fawns, and you get 25 doe tags, you can cut next years production by half. Help me understand."

The younger you shoot, the more years of production you take out.

Agreed, and have been around some “experts” that sucked at aging deer. Even when I pulled my jaw templets out of the truck, I was wrong/he was right. So if we differ by a year on our age guesstimate on a buck, or if I make an honest mistake out of the norm, you’re gonna slap a fine on me? Yeh, you can eat doo doo……that kinda crap is deer lease drama in the making and it sucks the fun out of everything. Been there, done that too.

with all due respect you should not have joined a lease if you read the rules and decided to join it anyway - and then go break those rules - you represent exactly the hunter we do not want on our lease

My lease doesn't have any limitations on what can be shot as long as it's legal. We also have zero drama or conflicts over what gets shot. It's somewhat unique in size and game, so it does self regulate.

If we are killing does, then yearlings, fawns, old nags, etc. are fair game.

It’s really easy to avoid killing button bucks if you just spend a second looking with bino’s.

IMO most guys that shoot button bucks never pick up the glass to check it out prior, they assume it’s a doe.

But back to topic, no issues with killing fawns if you need to take does off.

Buzz, no way I would pass on that buck.

That $500 rule will result in plenty of deer left in the pasture for coyotes.

Bingo. Rules are like laws, they're useless unless they can be enforced.

Think about it long term. If you only take out 6 year old does, they have produced fawns for five years, if that age class doesn’t exist then they never produced fawns.

If you kill out the 6 year old age class every year, every year you still have 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.5 age classes producing doe fawns every year. If you kill out doe fawns every other or third year then you only have 1.5, 3, 5 year old producing does producing fawns, and the years you arent killing does fawns you can go back to the older age classes if you want

It only takes about 2.5 airborne seconds to determine a fawn isn't a button, even with Vortex binos...

Many doe fawns, especially early fawns, are bred the first year. Heck, two years ago, I watched a button continuously try to mount his mama every chance he got. That button was less than six months old. For the record, I'm not advocating killing buttons.

But fawns taste great, and it's nice when you don't even have to use your knife, but can tease meat off the bone. Last year, I shot a doe and her doe fawn and I didn't lose one bit of sleep about it. IMHO, any "management plan" that doesn't even consider killing some doe fawns isn't a legitimate management plan. It's an incomplete plan based more on "feelings" than the science behind managing mouths.

I get it. Some of us have been in drought conditions and fawn recruitment apparently hasn't been awesome. OK, don't shoot any fawns. But when the herd is healthy and fawn recruitment is up, there's nothing wrong with killing a fawn doe or three. Did I mention they taste great?

Edit: And yes, hunting is supposed to be fun.

Well said Sir.

Indeed.

Heck of a deer for baby Buzz.

Baby Buzz, thanks. I thought that was Newman from Seinfeld.

now thats funny

forgot to mention, i was a guest. Circle O Ranch, Pearsall, next to the Half Brothers Ranch. i''l see if i can find the invite letter. i hunted it for 20 years .

The problem with a $500 fine for a fawn on a large East Texas lease is if you don't think some of these guys who accidentally shoot a fawn are not going to throw it into a ditch for something to carry it off, or stuff that critter into a cooler, under a tarp, in the bed under a cover, etc. to drive on out to not declare it so to avoid the fine and the anger toward them, your smoking crack. Then they will just shoot your management plan in the foot when they shoot another doe. Like it or not, human nature can create that kind of stuff with strangers when it involves money or avoiding humiliation.

If your lease is a small one with like minded people who know each other aka all friends you know are honest, you don't need a fine. If someone messes up one year, You have fun ribbing the heck out of them around the campfire with peer pressure and laugh about it, but not a fine. Otherwise it is just good way to lose a friend.

If it is a big lease with different individuals and clicks that don't interact or don't know each other well and someone accidentally takes a fawn, or wants to take one for some reason, so what. One or two non breeding age fawns out of several does are not going to hurt your management plan and as mentioned, might even help it. It sounds more like a personal feeling rule rather than a management minded one and IMHO unnecessary. Pick the battles that matter kind of thing.

The buck rule makes more sense for a large lease if you truly have a management plan. You could make it clear a button head is included in that rule, but then too, see my first paragraph again.

Good luck next season.

So let's get this right. You were a GUEST on a ranch and chose to break their rules by shooting that deer?? If so that is even worse IMO

He was a guest for 20 years. "Pitch 'til you win", as an old friend of mine likes to say.

First, let me say thank you to ALL OF YOU for your replies. My lease is 2,000 acres, part of a conglomerate of 5,000 acres. I've had this lease for 36 years. The group now on the lease has been together for a bout 10 years. We all get along real well and enjoy each other's company. No infighting. As far as the $500 fines for fawns or underage deer, it has done its job. Yes, that's steep, but it got everyone's attention and now they do a lot more glassing to make sure or pass up any single doe. Again, thank you all for your opinion!!