I rebarreled a friend's rifle last year, and did a load development.

The Vortex Crossfire gave me fits just trying to get a 100 yard zero (bad tracking). I took the rig to the big range and shot it to 500 yards, only using reticle holds. When he came to pick it up he asked why I didn't dial the turret. I explained that it does not track well, and it can't be trusted to dial up, and then return to zero. He said he wants a scope he can dial or make reticle holds with. He had a +/- $1000 budget. I brought up Burris and Night Force SHV. He's coming today to have me mount, bore sight, and zero the Night Force SHV. I think the Crossfire is going on a .22 lr.

I remember when certain folks (ahem) here thought Vortex was the cat's azz.

Then again, I remember when I thought Leupold was the cat's azz.

What a difference ten years make! LOL. What will we think ten years from now??


Happy new year.

Good response RR. As a kid, I was on cloud-9 when my dad gave me my 1st scope. It was a quintessential Weaver K4. Never failed!

Happy New Year!

This is probably before the company changed it's pronunciation to Loo-pold and their customers started "running" other brands.

My gosh, I've gotten a kick out of this thread. The product hatred is immense! Y'all make it sound as if Vortex...and Leupold "can't" build a quality product. How many matches are won with Leupold each year. How many satisfied hunters and shooters love there Luepold and Vortex scopes. Show me any scope manufacture on the planet, that hasn't had a product go belly up for one reason or another. Will someone please list the percentages of Leupold & Vortex scopes that come back for repair. If it's like you say, they'll all fail, it's just a matter of time. If that's the case none of them would be in business and Scheels and others wouldn't carry and support there products.

My Leupold VX-6 3-18X44mm tracks dead nuts on out to 1100 yards, as does my new GPO 3-18X44mm scope. That's the farthest I've shot them. I would expect nothing less. Did I get the exception to the rule here? We've had Vortex scopes on many of our rifles at the ranch. None have gone in for repair. The only scope I've ever sent in was a Burris. They warrantied the scope, fixed the issue and sent it back. It's operated flawlessly ever since. Leupold & Vortex have some of the best mechanical and optical design engineers working for them. There products like most are designed on computers and manufactured using CNC equipment. I'm sure the tolerances are very stringent. They're an ISO 9001 complaint company. That means everything is in the design and manufacturing process documented and processes are strictly followed. These products are not made in a garage. I'm an optical engineer (fiber optics), thirteen years ago one of divisions failed an ISO-9000 audit. Many heads rolled and folks were fired, some demoted. It was devastating to the company and that division. Many changes were made through out the company for a couple folks lax work.

I get it if you've had bad experience(s) with a given product. It doesn't mean the every product will fail and company is crud. My 2015 Ram was declared a lemon after many months and I got a new one. I bought my new Ram 2500 in 2021. They make quality hard working trucks.

Everyone has there likes and dislikes. Me, I'm not a Chevy fan. Doesn't mean they don't make a quality product, I like my Rams.

Let my beatings begin!

12th man, if you think Trump Derangement Syndrome has been bad after the election, you need to prepare yourself for the LDS and VDS onslaught, but I think you know that!

Yeah, that’s why I said let my beatings begin!😂😂😂

ANY company can build a fine scope. A good engineering team allowed to do what it believes is best will always succeed, but the sad fact of the matter is that engineering does not control the product lines. Engineering must comply with the bean counters' demands, and that will be reflected in the product specifications. ISO certification does not guarantee a high quality (and by "quality" I mean a desirable product, not QC jargon) product, it merely means there IS documentation for processes and that documentation is available where it is supposed to be available as are production records, sourcing records, and all that crap. It does not even mean that whatever the documents say is supposed to happen on the production floor is actually happening and that people are not pencil whipping stuff. Look at a blisterpack scope at Walmart, and you may well see the ISO seal on the back of the packaging. In my opinion, ISO is a joke. And YES, I have some experience with quality standards.

Having owned at least 40 Leupold scopes ranging from the old Vari-X II to the VX-5 series, I can honestly state that I learned early on that zeroing a Leupold was likely to be like a cat-and-mouse game and it most often was. I tolerated it because once set they held zero for the most part, the optical quality was very good, and their warranty was very good. I owned nothing BUT Leupold scopes for years. What turned me a little live video podcast type thing they put on maybe seven years ago where these two flat-billed cap wearing yahoos stood before the cameras and told the world that Leupold scopes track perfectly and that any tracking issue was due to damage or a defect in the one individual scope in question. That told me right then that changes had taken place at the top, and the company was going to coast on its reputation until either someone reads the handwriting on the wall and takes heed, or Leupold & Stevens goes the way of the pterodactyl (along with that wonderful lifetime warranty).

Now I own scopes that have adjustments that move the point of impact up, down, left, or right in accordance with the number of clicks I hear or feel, and I ain't going back.

I want other people's Vortex, Leupold, Swarovski, and Zeiss scopes to be easy to zero, track properly, and return to zero. But, I've seen too many of them that did not. I am actually surprised when any one of those brands works 100% like they are supposed to.

I don't own any of those brands of rifle scooes, but I have to work with them throughout the year. I just call em like I see em.

Remington Arms was an ISO-9000 company.

Remington Arms rested on their laurels and let quality fall by the wayside.

Remington Arms filed for bankruptcy. And they deserved it.

Yep. And look at the once vaunted Nissan Motor Corporation---once a model for quality control everywhere.

It's all about the bottom line nowadays......ROI, and returns to shareholders. Some are good at it, and some suck. Only the strong survive.

Remington Arms was an ISO-9000 company.

Remington Arms rested on their laurels and let quality fall by the wayside.

Remington Arms filed for bankruptcy. And they deserved it.

Being an ISO compliant company has nothing to do if you survive in today's world. Build garbage products that no one wants and they get what's coming. Read the book Good to Great. It highlights many companies that beat wall street expectations for fifteen years straight and how they did it. Most no longer exist for choosing other bad business processes.

JG, from the outside looking in as I don't know you but I read your remarks. Some I agree with some I just raise an eyebrow. I really think you have little to no understanding on what goes into how a large manufacture, creates a project for a new product. Everyone has COGs (cost of goods sold). This is the total costs of the entire project for that given product. This are up front numbers that will change the further you get into the gates before the project is given the green light. You might refer to them as been counters, but not really. A lot of this is how much will this product...lets say a scope, going to cost to manufacture. Is this product what our large customer base wants? If it's for a military application things get really interesting. What margins do we need to make sure customers purchase them and it remains profitable to the company. Commodity products like printers may have less than 8% margins. This means they have a sell a bunch of them. Other products have 60 to 80% margins. They need to be manufactured so they meet given build criteria to assure low rates defects and don't fail in the field. They don't build a $3500 scope to sell for $500. Every product has it's place, price point that customers are looking for and willing to spend and the company's has a healthy ROI.

To say, "I am actually surprised when any one of those brands works 100% like they are supposed to". Is your very bias opinion. You act as if Vortex, Leupold, Swarovski, and Zeiss scopes don't have some of the best engineers, R&D departments, and rigorous test facilities as well as the proper equipment to actually test their products to make sure they perform accordingly. Again, they're not built and made in a garage. They work for millions of customers, militaries and competitive shooters just not you! We get it, you don't care for these manufactures. A lot of us do for good reason as they work for us.

Does vortex make anything worth a chit?
Yes. A helluva warranty. Prepare to use it.

If buying Vortex, buy two so when one is out for warranty you have a backup.

<stir><stir>

Some engineers are great a screwing up a good product. And so are boards of directors.

I don't care about your long winded defense of those companies.

I care about what I've seen work, and what I've seen fail to work, over and over again. You cannot hide bad equipment and bad shooting habits beyond 400 yards.

When I've developed load for hundreds of rifles, and ran all of them out to 800 yards. I know what I see. Calculated data versus DOPE. I see tracking error. I see failure to return to zero.

I've go no axe to grind against any optic manufacturers. I just know the ones I have seen work correctly, repeatedly. And I know the ones I've seen give me, or the owner, trouble. I'm not working off a sample of less than 5 scopes, like you probably are. I am working off of samples (in some cases) over 100 units of the same manufacturers being a problem.

All the Sabre rattling and pushing of manufacturing statistics doesn't mean a damn thing when I see them fail on the rifle range, or on the hunt, many times.

If Vortex warranty was used as often as y'all say...makes me wonder how they stay in business?

As a Vortex homer...the best advice I can give you, if you buy cheap stuff...expect it to to be...well, cheap.

Show me a scope on the market that has an illuminated dot reticle with windage holds, is SFP, locking elevation turret, capped windage, 15x or bigger and less than 20oz...the Vortex Razor LHT doesn't count. There isn't anything on the market right now that compares that I have found and I've looked.

Maven gets an honorable mention with their new scope but it's FFP, heavy and no locking turret...so even it doesn't stack up.

NF is a great scope, I've owned them and I've sent them in for repair. They are for the guys who can tear up an anvil or an operator that a 15lb rifle doesn't bother them. Yes, I said it...it needed to be said.

Razor line of scopes is great. I love my Razor LHT 3-15x50. One of the few lightweight MIL/MIL scopes on the market.

I also have a PST Gen II on my .308 that I enjoy. My Diamondback binos have lasted me 12+ years with no issues. Granted, there is not much to break on 10x42 binos. I also have a Vortex rangefinder that had to get sent in due to inaccurate ranges, and Vortex sent me a brand new one back.

I've heard a lot of negative and positive reviews about Vortex. They are the most purchased rifle scope in the country so there will obviously be a lot of opinions on either side.

If I were in your shoes and I needed a hunting scope, I'd get the Razor LHT no questions asked. I love that scope and I've taken a lot of animals with it. It's served me well.

Hope it helps, good luck!

Take a look at the GPO CENTURI 3-18x44i. I got mine from Planet Optics for $525.00 It's 23.3 oz but meets the bulk of your criteria. It's a phenomenal scope! GPO is German Precision Optics founded by former Zeiss CEO

As I am reading this thread I am reminded of my own profession and it is eerily similar to the vortex vs high end optics debate.

Vortex is a company made for the average person who can not afford a zillion dollars worth of optics and desires a return on their money if something were to break on said optic. Lots and lots of average folk spend a "small fortune" on decent optics and are happy to do so because they can tell their wife they spent the extra 60-100 dollars over the binos their dad had and the thing is warranted for life, no matter what. Great deal right?

High end optics are far superior, are more for the niche market of discerning people and are not warranted very long at all. The folks that spend here sometimes will even look down on or laugh at the average folks having to "waste" their money on cheap optics.


So the answer to the question, does vortex sell anything worth buying is quite simple:

Are you the type of person who feels a value is gained by large scale mass production where mistakes will happen but cost is cheaper, or are you the type of person who wants to spend your hard earned money on quality, knowing the cost will be higher but the product will be better?

Who me

I really like my LHT but I’d take Maven over it durability wise 10 out of 10 times and would stake a high dollar tag or OIL backpack hunt on it. I would stake a high dollar tag on the LHT before any Luppy.

When you dig down into scope mfg’ing. The three most durable brands right now all come from same factory in Japan. It’s that simple. Maybe Leupold should hire CEO of light optical to fix their durability issues.

As you know,, at this point you can build a sub 6.5lb rifle pretty easy with out to much thought, in fact sub 6 ain’t hard either.

I was aware of that scope and GPO seems to be making some great stuff.

The main reason I replied...just like ATN, friends don't let friends by from Optics Planet. They SUCK and the worst offense...they show everything in stock and don't have it all.

So a Gen III Razor 6-36 that cost 3000.00 isn’t considered a high end optic? I do admit that the cost doesn’t make it high end just look at the old outdated designed Nightforce products that are overpriced basically 500-1000 dollars across their line of scopes but some consider that high end ?

Oh really!!! I’d like to see any of you guys get out of bed at 4:20PM, not eat a thing except 4 pieces of fried chicken, ride up to 200 yards in a Polaris( which wasn’t air conditioned and it was 73 degrees!!) get out and walk probably 20 yards with a 10lb pack on your back, climb up 10 steps in a rail less ladder, sit in a lounge chair, with a gun in a Bog Death Grip and honestly tell me you could kill a buck 70 yards away at the feeder; with a Vortex!! I dare you to try.

If it's FFP, it may all work out.

Lmao