I'll also point out here that what JG is saying here is basically counter to what guys who ladder test promote, if I understand it right. Isn't the whole thing "only look at vertical dispersion because you can't control horizontal dispersion due to wind"? If that's the case, then shouldn't we be completely disregarding that there's 3.75" of horizontal dispersion, and only focusing on and celebrating the fact that this is a sub MOA group at 200 as measured by vertical dispersion? Harmonics problem solved, yes?

Other than it being a no wind situation, yes. I think people use the “bad horizontal was the wind” a bit too much and at 200 yards that would be some serious wind.

Look again. It is sub MOA at 100 yards, probably 1/2, I didn't measure it.

It is 1 MOA vertically, at 200 yards.

100% of the ladder tests I've performed gave me good data. I do it when I am in a combination that I have never loaded before. It is unnecessary if I've loaded that combination before, so I go straight to shooting groups at 200 yards.

Here is the best load it shot, with the same components, only a higher powder charge.



This was in the same session, within an hour of the first group, due to barrel cooling. The horizontal is less than the vertical.

I went one more charge even hotter, and the horizontal dispersion showed back up. The highest charge I shot, the rifle was not happy with it.

IF the pressure curve, barrel time, and velocity is exactly the same from shot to shot, that would be true.

What I'm saying is that the barrel's movement is independent of distance. It does not know that you are shooting at a farther distance and decide to shoot smaller groups.

The barrel's movement is not the only factor influencing the bullet's path.

I think that the gravity vector must have something to do with how the barrel vibrates. I won't even venture into THAT weedpatch, I don't have the chops to prove it one way or another. What I DO know, though, is that tuners work. I also know that you can't just find the sweet spot for shooting a certain load at a given distance and then be effective indefinitely. Environmental conditions changing requires tweaking the tuner.

No one understands tuners better than John Meyers. Erik Cortina made a very interesting video with him a while back where John reveals a little of his knowledge. It's very interesting because he talks about how he got sucked into competition and how he achieved success. He's told me basically the same story in person.

The point of this whole thread is the load was probably dispersing, but it was not seen at 100 yards. It took 200 yards for it to show up.

Most of the time, you get a good tight shooting load at 200 yards, go back to 100, and it holds the group size relative to distance. .6 MOA at 200 is .6 MOA, or less, at 100. Most of the time...

I've seen a 100-yard MOA load shoot like crap at 200 myself and I bet many of us here have seen the same thing. Maybe we can't explain it...maybe none of us know why. But we've seen it.

Who can explain a 0.100" group at 200 yards or even 100 yards knowing that barrels vibrate and whip around in the first place? And we know that 0.100" is not even that close to the world record.

With a normal (not benchrest) gun and ammo?

Do you want to argue that benchrest guns are immune to the vibration phenomena that sporter weight rifles are subject to?

That's a level of accuracy that I've never cared to, or had the time to pursue. Maybe when .05" is the difference between a gold medal and nothing it's something that matters? I just think people are heavily invested in defending something they've spent money on (or are selling, in Erik's case), and I would rank the supposed benefit of a tuner somewhere around 20th in a list of variables I would prioritize in the pursuit of accuracy.

To me it reeks of vudoo ballistics to go online and see some guys say "when the temperature drops make sure to move your tuner out,"but then other guys say that "it depends on who you talk to." A lack of consistency and predictability immediately throws it into the bucket of "normal statistical variation" in my mind.

I'd pull my hair out if I was having to balance what tuner setting I needed with a 15fps change, but the temperature dropped, but then that also changed my POI, so on. That might be why I don't shoot benchrest.

Me? I just use quality components, pick a velocity and shoot lil groups.

In the end my own approach to what I do is the same as yours.

I don't want to measure ogives, I don't want to spend thousands on a scale capable of dropping charges within 0.01 grains, I don't want to spend thousands on building a rifle and constantly be rebarreling it for the next match, and I don't want to spend thousands traveling to compete nor do I care to dedicate my life to that pursuit (and if you don't, you will not win because there are guys out there who ARE driven to dedicate their lives to it). I just wanted (past tense because I'm now way more focused on just hunting hogs) to use off-the-shelf stuff and see what could be done with it. On the side, due to curiosity I also wanted to learn the "why"s and having access to people like MIke Plaxco (RIP), Mike Stinnett, John Meyers, and a few others who are willing to share a little knowledge has afforded me the opportunity to learn from others' experience. That has satisfied a lot of my inquisitiveness in a much more economical manner.

So tell me...have you not ever developed a load at 100 yards that fell apart at 200?

I watched NASA vid that demonstrates the barrel whip effect really well. They used a slug of H2O in a pipe but effect is the same. The 'nodes' vary along the length of the barrel. The 'pipe' expands and contracts with the nodes and 'supports' change the nodes. I've never done a ladder test but I don't compete either. Pick components, fps and load.

WUT?

Not really. I spend a fair amount of rounds developing a single load at 100 and I'm well aware of its true accuracy before I take it out to distance.

But like I said, with a good enough gun, good enough components, and a good reloading process, I'm basically picking a velocity and then just verifying dope out at range.