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 Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: txtrophy85]
#9113148
09/25/24 07:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,710
unclebubba
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No other state has 5.5 million deer living within it’s boundaries
We can support a longer season and liberal bag limits that other places can’t.
And plenty of other states have longer deer seasons than we do.
Arkansas bow season opens September 28th and ends February 28th
I don't know if it is still this way, but Alabama used to not even have a season limit (this was in the early 2000's), they had a daily limit of one buck and one doe.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: unclebubba]
#9113158
09/25/24 07:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
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No other state has 5.5 million deer living within it’s boundaries
We can support a longer season and liberal bag limits that other places can’t.
And plenty of other states have longer deer seasons than we do.
Arkansas bow season opens September 28th and ends February 28th
I don't know if it is still this way, but Alabama used to not even have a season limit (this was in the early 2000's), they had a daily limit of one buck and one doe. Yes, they finally changed it. Their season went into February as well IIRC
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113161
09/25/24 07:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
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Just looked, in much of Alabama bow season is October 15th-February 10th
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: freerange]
#9113232
09/25/24 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 904
Double AC
Tracker
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Although some may not like it, the native deer are a public resource that all property owners manage/don’t. To manage some deer need to be removed some do not. Some manage for different things max antler or max deer sightings. Some will do their best to do what they should some will not shoot anything and some will shoot way more than they should. Managing a public asset that depends on private property and decisions sounds like an impossibility. Only thing I can think of is if every property was HF then every property owner would have to live by their own choices. That’s not feasible at all though, nor would I want it.
I do not think AR’s are perfect. I do think in every area I have seen the before and after there has been a marked improvement after their implementation in what I am looking for in hunting. I simply do not believe all the sightings of narrow deer taking over. A study on average spread of deer taken in ar vs non ar county would be interesting.
I think the reason that the narrow rack argument is so prevalent is that those narrow rack deer are the only ones that get past about age 3 or 4. Perception is that there are so many more of them, when you are just seeing the same few year after year. Very good point, Uncle. Ive never thought about that but I dont ever really think about ARs until these threads keep coming up. We hunt a lot of country and along with our large neighbors kill very few deer. We have a lot of mature bucks every year but Im not sure Ive ever seen a mature deer under the AR limits(I know they exist.) No one who says they make up a large % of the mature herd or are "taking over the genetics" have any actual data on free range deer herds to back their comments on. The reason you don't see them is because of how infrequently they occur (even less so on well managed herds like yours). We hunt on 2000 acres where deer genetics are very typical of the majority of the state. In 20 years of very intense data recording and keeping we typically see ~80 unique bucks on average each year. Only one single buck in 20 years has not been legal by the age of 3.5.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: Double AC]
#9113277
09/25/24 10:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,092
don k
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Although some may not like it, the native deer are a public resource that all property owners manage/don’t. To manage some deer need to be removed some do not. Some manage for different things max antler or max deer sightings. Some will do their best to do what they should some will not shoot anything and some will shoot way more than they should. Managing a public asset that depends on private property and decisions sounds like an impossibility. Only thing I can think of is if every property was HF then every property owner would have to live by their own choices. That’s not feasible at all though, nor would I want it.
I do not think AR’s are perfect. I do think in every area I have seen the before and after there has been a marked improvement after their implementation in what I am looking for in hunting. I simply do not believe all the sightings of narrow deer taking over. A study on average spread of deer taken in ar vs non ar county would be interesting.
I think the reason that the narrow rack argument is so prevalent is that those narrow rack deer are the only ones that get past about age 3 or 4. Perception is that there are so many more of them, when you are just seeing the same few year after year. Very good point, Uncle. Ive never thought about that but I dont ever really think about ARs until these threads keep coming up. We hunt a lot of country and along with our large neighbors kill very few deer. We have a lot of mature bucks every year but Im not sure Ive ever seen a mature deer under the AR limits(I know they exist.) No one who says they make up a large % of the mature herd or are "taking over the genetics" have any actual data on free range deer herds to back their comments on. The reason you don't see them is because of how infrequently they occur (even less so on well managed herds like yours). We hunt on 2000 acres where deer genetics are very typical of the majority of the state. In 20 years of very intense data recording and keeping we typically see ~80 unique bucks on average each year. Only one single buck in 20 years has not been legal by the age of 3.5. But if you started with 3.5-year-old bucks that were 13 inches or less what would be your outcome? Would they have infected the entire herd?
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113283
09/25/24 10:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,092
don k
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Are East Texas folks as bad as you make them out to be? If they are don't you think that the AR rule means squat to them, and they still take whatever deer they want? If that is the case, then AR rules have nothing to do with deer management. It is a feel-good thing to get more trophy type deer. And as before, if that is the case then why not do it statewide?
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: don k]
#9113302
09/25/24 10:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
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Are East Texas folks as bad as you make them out to be? If they are don't you think that the AR rule means squat to them, and they still take whatever deer they want? If that is the case, then AR rules have nothing to do with deer management. It is a feel-good thing to get more trophy type deer. And as before, if that is the case then why not do it statewide? Antler restrictions were originally implemented in areas that had 90% of the buck harvest consist of yearling deer. After those original counties had success, they implemented it in more counties ( and they take some public opinion into account when implementing these rules) that had a high immature buck harvest. It was never about growing “trophy” deer, it was about carrying more bucks to an age of 3 years old or greater for herd health. It does not make sense in counties where you have either an excess deer population or in counties where hunters are not prone to shooting immature bucks. You can’t paint the whole state with the same brush. I’m wondering why you are so down on Antler restrictions when you don’t hunt or own land in a county under AR, and in the counties that are under them, by and large, hunters are killing more and bigger deer than ever before
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: Double AC]
#9113351
09/26/24 12:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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Although some may not like it, the native deer are a public resource that all property owners manage/don’t. To manage some deer need to be removed some do not. Some manage for different things max antler or max deer sightings. Some will do their best to do what they should some will not shoot anything and some will shoot way more than they should. Managing a public asset that depends on private property and decisions sounds like an impossibility. Only thing I can think of is if every property was HF then every property owner would have to live by their own choices. That’s not feasible at all though, nor would I want it.
I do not think AR’s are perfect. I do think in every area I have seen the before and after there has been a marked improvement after their implementation in what I am looking for in hunting. I simply do not believe all the sightings of narrow deer taking over. A study on average spread of deer taken in ar vs non ar county would be interesting.
I think the reason that the narrow rack argument is so prevalent is that those narrow rack deer are the only ones that get past about age 3 or 4. Perception is that there are so many more of them, when you are just seeing the same few year after year. Very good point, Uncle. Ive never thought about that but I dont ever really think about ARs until these threads keep coming up. We hunt a lot of country and along with our large neighbors kill very few deer. We have a lot of mature bucks every year but Im not sure Ive ever seen a mature deer under the AR limits(I know they exist.) No one who says they make up a large % of the mature herd or are "taking over the genetics" have any actual data on free range deer herds to back their comments on. The reason you don't see them is because of how infrequently they occur (even less so on well managed herds like yours). We hunt on 2000 acres where deer genetics are very typical of the majority of the state. In 20 years of very intense data recording and keeping we typically see ~80 unique bucks on average each year. Only one single buck in 20 years has not been legal by the age of 3.5. Double AC seems like a smart guy with some good experience to pull from. I know every situation can be different but I would put some stock in his comments.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: txtrophy85]
#9113523
09/26/24 11:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,092
don k
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Are East Texas folks as bad as you make them out to be? If they are don't you think that the AR rule means squat to them, and they still take whatever deer they want? If that is the case, then AR rules have nothing to do with deer management. It is a feel-good thing to get more trophy type deer. And as before, if that is the case then why not do it statewide? Antler restrictions were originally implemented in areas that had 90% of the buck harvest consist of yearling deer. After those original counties had success, they implemented it in more counties ( and they take some public opinion into account when implementing these rules) that had a high immature buck harvest. It was never about growing “trophy” deer, it was about carrying more bucks to an age of 3 years old or greater for herd health. It does not make sense in counties where you have either an excess deer population or in counties where hunters are not prone to shooting immature bucks. You can’t paint the whole state with the same brush. I’m wondering why you are so down on Antler restrictions when you don’t hunt or own land in a county under AR, and in the counties that are under them, by and large, hunters are killing more and bigger deer than ever before I am wondering the same about you. You are so for AR's when you do not live in an AR County. And how do you know where I hunt or own land?
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: don k]
#9113525
09/26/24 11:44 AM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 15,354
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 15,354 |
Are East Texas folks as bad as you make them out to be? If they are don't you think that the AR rule means squat to them, and they still take whatever deer they want? If that is the case, then AR rules have nothing to do with deer management. It is a feel-good thing to get more trophy type deer. And as before, if that is the case then why not do it statewide? Antler restrictions were originally implemented in areas that had 90% of the buck harvest consist of yearling deer. After those original counties had success, they implemented it in more counties ( and they take some public opinion into account when implementing these rules) that had a high immature buck harvest. It was never about growing “trophy” deer, it was about carrying more bucks to an age of 3 years old or greater for herd health. It does not make sense in counties where you have either an excess deer population or in counties where hunters are not prone to shooting immature bucks. You can’t paint the whole state with the same brush. I’m wondering why you are so down on Antler restrictions when you don’t hunt or own land in a county under AR, and in the counties that are under them, by and large, hunters are killing more and bigger deer than ever before I am wondering the same about you. You are so for AR's when you do not live in an AR County. And how do you know where I hunt or own land? I don't know why I always thought you were near Bandera. don k THF Celebrity Joined: Aug 2008 Posts: 15,033 Bandera, Tx
Last edited by Hudbone; 09/26/24 12:21 PM.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: don k]
#9113529
09/26/24 11:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,681
Pope&Young
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,681 |
Are East Texas folks as bad as you make them out to be? If they are don't you think that the AR rule means squat to them, and they still take whatever deer they want? If that is the case, then AR rules have nothing to do with deer management. It is a feel-good thing to get more trophy type deer. And as before, if that is the case then why not do it statewide? ![[Linked Image]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/userpics/2024/09/full-34616-432146-brown_its_down.png)
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113541
09/26/24 12:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,233
DQ Kid
OP
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OP
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Re-taped him last night and just a shade over ARs, 13 1/8" inside so would be barely AR compliant. All that said, glad we could get some spirited, thought provocative discussions going. As I have bee a smaller landowner, sub 100 acres in an AR county, Young for tge past 15+ years, I can definitively state that I favor AR Restrictions. I can 100% see the improvement in buck harvests within Young county from 2005-2023 seasons. 2005-2006 were some of the last non-AR regulated times in the county and literally sounded like the 4th of July out there daily, not to mention all the small, Young buck harvests at local processors. I by no means advocate trophy buck hunting or nothing, but do feel the importance of mature harvests vs not. Plenty of spikes, doe, hogs, coyotes to go around until those more mature, AR compliant bucks to show up...
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: don k]
#9113554
09/26/24 12:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
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I am wondering the same about you. You are so for AR's when you do not live in an AR County. And how do you know where I hunt or own land?
It says under your screen name where you are from Context clues…
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: redchevy]
#9113555
09/26/24 12:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,127
Texas452
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
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My biggest to date was a typical 12, was a 13 but broke kicker off in velvet. He is 13 1/8th inside and aged 4-5 YO. I think AR’s are far from perfect, but living in an AR county I have deer in my yard that wouldn’t have a snowballs chance in hell without them. If you let every property owner in an area comprised of 10 acre tracts shoot a buck you will wind up with no bucks.
At the end of the street I grew up on is a big field. Nothing to see 50+ deer and not a buck amongst them. Now it is an AR county and my parents even get bucks up in the yard.
Budy hunts a place that formerly had almost zero deer. A few years after AR’s they have several and have shot some nice ones.
Nobody likes being told what they can shoot on their own property but they are effective at making sure the deer aren’t eradicated. I own two places with AR’s, one without. AR’s have made a difference, my grandkids grew up hunting AR counties, now they pass deer on the the place with no AR’s. If everyone would follow the rules, it would work really good, but the farther east you go the worst it gets.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113558
09/26/24 12:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Posts: 33,191 |
Re-taped him last night and just a shade over ARs, 13 1/8" inside so would be barely AR compliant. All that said, glad we could get some spirited, thought provocative discussions going. As I have bee a smaller landowner, sub 100 acres in an AR county, Young for tge past 15+ years, I can definitively state that I favor AR Restrictions. I can 100% see the improvement in buck harvests within Young county from 2005-2023 seasons. 2005-2006 were some of the last non-AR regulated times in the county and literally sounded like the 4th of July out there daily, not to mention all the small, Young buck harvests at local processors. I by no means advocate trophy buck hunting or nothing, but do feel the importance of mature harvests vs not. Plenty of spikes, doe, hogs, coyotes to go around until those more mature, AR compliant bucks to show up... That’s the thing….there is nothing that really defines a “trophy buck”. Only a record book minimum. There is a baseline for mature and immature though Most seasoned hunters agree that age matters 10x’s over antler or horn size.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113564
09/26/24 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 15,354
Hudbone
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Posts: 15,354 |
The Ostrich shot a 178 with a 14 inch inside spread near Artesia Wells.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113585
09/26/24 01:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,135
huntingbig8
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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![[Linked Image]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/userpics/2024/09/full-17661-432157-view_recent_photos.jpeg) Here is a really nice western Young County stud very near the OP, I'm usually a fan of AR's and protecting young deer, this is an example of why they sometimes don't work. I never put eyes on this deer or measured him but he has to be really close to illegal or legal
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: huntingbig8]
#9113587
09/26/24 01:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
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Here is a really nice western Young County stud very near the OP, I'm usually a fan of AR's and protecting young deer, this is an example of why they sometimes don't work. I never put eyes on this deer or measured him but he has to be really close to illegal or legal Let’s say this deer came from an AR county…if there was a 90% chance without AR’s he would have been shot as a yearling, I would say this is an example of them working.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113609
09/26/24 02:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 23
gray01
Light Foot
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Light Foot
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I hunt in an AR county. The rules work for allowing deer to grow to maturity before they are taken for those that follow the rules. Now there is nothing wrong with hunters that use their deer tags and then process their deer at home, but we all know that east Texas hillbillies don't follow the rules. They kill, field dress, skin, quarter out the deer and take it home for processing without even a thought given to using their deer tag.
Another topic in these AR counties is how the rule is written. One can take two spikes or a spike and a buck with a 13" or greater spread. How many deer do y'all see that their first set of horns are spikes only to follow the next year being a nice 6-8 pointer?
Gray01
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: gray01]
#9113647
09/26/24 03:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,191
txtrophy85
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How many deer do y'all see that their first set of horns are spikes only to follow the next year being a nice 6-8 pointer? some years quite a few. if there is a hole in the AR regs, imo that's the one
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: txtrophy85]
#9113662
09/26/24 03:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,233
DQ Kid
OP
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OP
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Posts: 11,233 |
How many deer do y'all see that their first set of horns are spikes only to follow the next year being a nice 6-8 pointer? some years quite a few. if there is a hole in the AR regs, imo that's the one I can think of one other and possibly bigger, broken main beams counting as one side unbranched. In early days of ARs, some wardens were not counting an obviously broken main beam deer as unbranched but that ended pretty quickly after 1-3 years. A warden back then told me it was a judgmental call; guess that led to too many complaints. Therefore, not uncommon to see deer meeting ARs now that would not have then, leading to many younger bucks by rule of reg meeting ARs.
Last edited by DQ Kid; 09/26/24 03:41 PM.
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: DQ Kid]
#9113718
09/26/24 05:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 23
gray01
Light Foot
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Light Foot
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txtrophy85 - I agree on the spikes. I will only shoot a spike if its 6" or taller and decent body size. I just can't bring myself to take down a small body deer that has not reached maturity. Would rather harvest some old does.
Gray01
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: txtrophy85]
#9113725
09/26/24 06:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577 |
How many deer do y'all see that their first set of horns are spikes only to follow the next year being a nice 6-8 pointer? some years quite a few. if there is a hole in the AR regs, imo that's the one Yep, allowing/encouraging the shooting of spikes is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Especially when it seems lumped in with the AR rule that is supposed to help deer get older before getting killed. No doubt in my mind the main reason they did it was to throw a bone to hunters to make the AR rule not sting so bad. Now that most like the AR rule then why not take away the stupid spike thing. They evidently wont ever admit the Kerr study about spikes was flawed.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: freerange]
#9113777
09/26/24 07:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,446
QuitShootinYoungBucks
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,446 |
How many deer do y'all see that their first set of horns are spikes only to follow the next year being a nice 6-8 pointer? some years quite a few. if there is a hole in the AR regs, imo that's the one Yep, allowing/encouraging the shooting of spikes is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Especially when it seems lumped in with the AR rule that is supposed to help deer get older before getting killed. No doubt in my mind the main reason they did it was to throw a bone to hunters to make the AR rule not sting so bad. Now that most like the AR rule then why not take away the stupid spike thing. They evidently wont ever admit the Kerr study about spikes was flawed. The spike thing isn't as bad as you make it out to be, all things considered. If the spike is the same age as your other yearling bucks, and you have a bunch of 4-6-8pt yearlings, removing one (if you need to take mouths) isn't bad at all. You end up not feeding him four years to find out if he can catch the others. If he's not the same age, say he's 3mos younger, then he's going into winter pretty far behind his classmates, and will essentially be a year behind them going forward. Going through winter at a reduced age/size means less groceries and a chance that his retarded growth will never be overcome. The second example is why I don't like to shoot does that have fawns until extremely late in the season. Regardless the biologist 'they can make it', having mom around as long as possible is nothing but good for a young animal. I do agree that without history, blanket removal of all spikes is a pretty bad policy.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.katiecortese.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/texas-tech-logo-2-150x150.jpg) https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: AR Restrictions
[Re: freerange]
#9113911
09/27/24 12:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,127
Texas452
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,127 |
How many deer do y'all see that their first set of horns are spikes only to follow the next year being a nice 6-8 pointer? some years quite a few. if there is a hole in the AR regs, imo that's the one Yep, allowing/encouraging the shooting of spikes is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Especially when it seems lumped in with the AR rule that is supposed to help deer get older before getting killed. No doubt in my mind the main reason they did it was to throw a bone to hunters to make the AR rule not sting so bad. Now that most like the AR rule then why not take away the stupid spike thing. They evidently wont ever admit the Kerr study about spikes was flawed. I agree. We let young spikes walk, especially in drought years. The bigger bodied long horn spikes, we take out.
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