What do you think? I personally have no use for them. From the times I have been around union folks, they were the ones who were the most unproductive guys in the station.

I believe the original idea was good. Employees were being treated pretty awful many years ago. Power can corrupt.

Illegal immigration is the best union buster ever invented, and the union leaders support it.

I've only had two, in-person interactions with any unions. One was a couple of IBEW office pukes that made some threats when they were on my property watching a non-union contractor train his linemen on our training field. I told them to leave, in language that I believe they were accustomed to hearing. They complied. 'Never heard another word from 'em. All they accomplished was reinforcing my opinions of unions. 'Saw a guy a few weeks ago in an IBEW tshirt. As usual, he looked pretty PWT. If that's what you're most proud of, there's something wrong with you.

Second was when a couple of young white boys that we'd just hired couldn't understand why they weren't getting raises and put ahead of Hispanic men that'd been with us for, some, 20+ years. They went and riled up the UAW and we had to have a vote. 'Only time in our company's history. My grandfather had already ingrained in us to just chain the doors and shut the business down if a union came in, and we were prepared to do so. We got a lawyer. We lined the main hallway with blown-up pictures of the Lone Star Brewery closed and chained locked when they unionized. (It is closed and pitiful to this day, even though the city has announced grand plans, 2 or 3 times in the past few decades. So far, nuthin'.) Thankfully, the men voted "No" by an overwhelming majority. A few months later the same two kids were caught stealing tools and I had the great pleasure of telling them to get the hell off the property.

There was a time and place for unions, IMO, and it was long ago. I don't think they do much for Joe Public today except cause us to pay a lot more for the same good or service we could get cheaper from a non-union (if that was an option).

Overall i support them. Always pros and cons. Here is a big issue why i support them. Lets say you hired in and for years you did your job very well. Now you want to move onto bigger and better training cause your bored with what you have been doing and need a challenge. The non union company doesnt want to lose you with what your doing cause you do it so well so they hire someone new with no experience to train for the more advanced job you are wanting. The way the company sees it why move you to a new position and have to train you in addition to having to train another new hire who needs to take your old job. So bypass the proven productive worker and keep him locked in. A union will say no its based on senority as long as the individual can pass the test.

This isnt some made up scenario it happens all the time

We moved people from hydraulic mechanic, to supervisor, to manager all the time. I've watched some mechanics actually move into sales and do very well. All of our branch managers were formerly mechanics. Now, I have had a couple of "Peter Principle" experiences with some folks, but we had some great successes too.

Let's see. As a kid, Dad's aquintence was car bombed, asked dad to take his place. Nope. I paid dues for a summer job, never looked back. One company was half union, locked out. Worked with lots of union peoples, they never were very good. Their bosses always want the Ds in.

The non union company side does the actual hiring. They are the ones who decide we need to hire more women, blacks, muslim and make the final decision not the union. If non qualiffied people join the union cause the company hired them it isnt the unions fault. The non union company also decides who gets fired not the union

Organized labor.
Organized crime.

The letters line up perfectly.

I have never seen a "Live better, work union" bumper sticker on anything other than a POS vehicle, that's literally, and figuratively blowing smoke.

Leaders from six of the largest labor unions in the U.S. were part of the group of speakers kicking off the Democratic National Convention.

My only experience with Unions was when I was in the grocery business. I worked for Winn Dixie who was not union. Safeway was big union and a major player back in the 70`s and 80`s until they closed all of their Texas stores. WD paid slightly lower than them and had similar benefits until Safeway left Texas. As soon as Safeway closed all locations, we lost time and half for working Sundays and holidays. Lost 2 or 3 personal days off with pay and no pay raises for 5-6 years. So, I guess you can say that I benefited from Safeway being union until they left. I think the Safeway employees lost their jobs due to the union contracts that forced Safeway to pay wages high enough that their stores weren`t profitable in a very competitive market.

And that’s ^^^^^^ everything you need to know about unions. I have no use for them like all democraps….

So you are for basing promotions on seniority, not ability?

They want the rubes that the major domos at the union office approve for promotion to get promoted. It's a racket in every sense of the word.

No i also said provided they pass the test

Well, they ain't gonna be no English grammar teacher.

That's where the free market works. The worker knows he is ready to move up his station in life so if he is passed over he beats feet to a new employer(he is not locked in). The original company gets to hire two new people and all three will get more at current market rates.

I suppose it is all relevant to what industry you are in,I am a union member and have been paying dues for 30+ years,I am sure that without the union I would not have made near as much money as I have with them,that being said,I would happily take my skills and work a non union job if it payed anywhere near what I make as a union member,but alas that will never happen.
I am in the airline industry and seniority and years of service are directly related to pay and days off and shift worked,with out the union the company could require me to work graves with week days off,and at a bid location of their choosing,with 29 plus years seniority I can pretty much work where I want when I want.
The down side is that a guy/girl who has the same seniority can get the same pay and benefits for doing 1/4 of the work with 1/2 or less of the job skills and training/certifations that I hold,it isn’t fair but I don’t hold any hard feelings toward those people.
I am very happy in my job and could retire at any time if I chose to,most of the guys on my crew are multi millionaires and still working because they enjoy it,I know I am in the minority of union workers in that we are “skilled labor” and are heavily regulated by the FAA ,but I don’t think I would work in the airline industry with out a union.
I have almost 30 years at my current employer and have seen good times and bad times with the union/company relationship,but our company was for the most part always ranked in the top 100 companies in the US to work for,and we are one of the most heavily union Airlines in the world .
BTW we are heavily conservative in our union and parted ways with the Teamsters 15 years ago because of a lot of their policies concerning who they supported with our dues.

What happens if you chose not to be a part of the union? Is it a requirement to get hired? I have never been a part of a union in my line of work but I wouldn't want my dues going to a group that support different political views than me. I think seniority would bother me too. I should be rewarded for my hard work, how well I do it, the investments I made and initiative I have shown to get licenses and certifications. Seniority does mean something but to me it's lower on the list.

College graduates despise unions when their skilled labor members make more than they do. Others despise them simply because they make more and get better benefits. The relationship between labor/unions and management is a pendulum that swings back and forth. One gets the upper hand on the other and the pendulum begins to swing back the other way. There are many industries where labor and management have worked successfully for decades. The paper industry is a good example. Can you ever remember not being able to wipe your butt because of a strike at a paper mill? I was able to pay for a lot of my college by working at a paper mill during the summer. Thirty years later I found myself being a "scab" and temporary replacement for skilled workers in the Telecommunications industry. I see the relationship between the two as nothing personal but how business is done.

The kind of people unions were meant to compensate for always have ended up running the sonsabitches from time immemorial.

Well said.

I have never been involved with a union and never will.
The few people I’ve known that are/been union workers, were underachievers, they would hit the beer joints after work, they were lazy, and thought someone owed them something.
Most of them that I knew cheated on their wives all the time, and would support democrats no matter what.
I could never understand how a union could brainwash people as conservative as I am.

This topic reminds me of a story I heard.

We were in Boston a couple of years ago and talked to a tour guide about the Big Dig Project there.
He said his son got a job driving a dump truck and on the first day, he hauled his first load and went back for a second when his Union boss stopped him and told him not to return for another load until the end of the day. He and his coworkers did this for years...they got part-time jobs to work between loads. The project was originally projected to last 7 years but ended up going 16 years. Cost overruns were 190% by the time it was completed. Not all of this was because of the unions but they did their part.

But wouldn’t passing the test involve some training?

The worst comment in a union discussion is "they had a time and place". Nope, they didn't. Socialism has no place in our lives and never has. Unions are an insidious and damning part of culture that often raise drastically more issues than they solve. They have done so since they were invented.

Texas is a right to work state so you don’t have to join the union ,and you can work,but you are still assigned a seniority # and have all the same benefits as union members,you also pay dues so you are by all accounts a union member even if you say you don’t want to join.

I fell under this in the 90’s when I was at Lockheed. Paid dues but not a member. Had to quit after a year of shenanigans by the local union leader. She would always sign up for OT and signed up her buddies first, leftovers went to us less fortunate. Miserable experience there for many reasons.

For the best worker in the Union its probably a bad deal - he could negotiate a better deal.

For the worst worker in the Union it's a great deal - he gets the benefits of being an average worker.

Good and bad

My BIL who is an engineer in Wyoming has some pretty crazy stories about how unions work and the issues they have caused.

However, when it comes to the fire service I have seen how much local government will completely screw you if you don’t have a voice and make them follow their own rules and the law.

I saw both sides of Unions. As a part time employee while in college, then full time after graduating I was an hourly employee and union member. A year as a full time hourly with my degree, I was promoted into management. I never liked the union when I was in it but if you're in a union shop and not a member, it's kind of like what I imagine prison would be like without a gang to protect you. In management I really saw how self serving the union was. Union business mangers came from the hourly ranks, left the company to work for the union. They were the laziest, most negative malcontents we had. They made great business managers. A lot of the people that work for the union hold multiple positions and pull in multiple pay checks. They thrive on negativity and don't actually want a happy, content satisfied work force. Their existence is based on the employer being an evil entity that is out to enslave the workers so you need the union to protect you. They always negotiated in the favor of the Union, not the workers. Union dues were based on the hourly wage they negotiated. When we would offer a signing bonus with an hourly increase, the unions didn't like it because they didn't get any of the bonus that would be going to the workers. Unions rake in MILLIONS of $ in dues and provide nothing but representation. A huge part of what they take in is to pay salaries to people that don't work much.

Well below average from my experience…..

The best worker didnt know squat when he hired on. Ask the old timers who trained him

^^^^^

If you have to join a union for survival, you picked the wrong employer or career.


Accurately describes local, State, and Federal government.

I'm not pro-Union at all. But, you're wrong in my case. I played the game as an hourly long enough to get into management and it turned out to be a great career move for me.

If someone wants to join a union and be a life long career hourly employee as an auto worker, railroad employee, utility lineman, etc.........they bank great $ and do well. Not for me, but I know some that are happy with their choice and have had life long careers.

Wonder if you know how much a normal auto tech makes if he's been in the business for over 30 years, is top 10 in the zone by Mark of Excellence rating, and better than 300 in the nation? I haven't had an hourly job since the 1990's. In anti-union Texas, auto techs are paid commission based on the amount of labor each job should require (we make nothing off parts), not by the hour. You have to go up to Yankee-land to find union auto repair shops where the guys get paid way more "per hour" (might take a while to explain the difference) to produce about half the work. I didn't say you can't make money or be happy (abortion doctors do it all the time), I said if you HAVE to join a union then you picked the wrong profession or employer. The UAW is the cause for about 30% of a new vehicle's cost. Tour an assembly plant sometime. It's pretty sickening.

I don't, nor do I care. How is your question relevant to my statement?

I'm not pro union, at all.

Unions protect the least productive and worst employees and look down on the best. I’ve seen it first hand where the other employees would be sick of covering for and cleaning up after a terrible employee, but then miraculously changing their story after speaking with the union rep. This was during investigations of said worthless employees.

Pure thuggery. A whole system based on intimidation. The high school bully that never grew up is an "officer" in the union.

I actually think the union officer is the high school kid that wanted to be a bully but wasn't tough enough. The union "officer" was never relevant anywhere until he realized that being a pain in the a-- at work and hating the company he worked for would get him elected to something. That was my observation.

I manage large scale Semi-Conductor & Data Center projects and have union plumbers, pipe fitters, electricians & sheet metal workers on these projects. For the most part they are worthless, idiots and all they do is drive costs up!

Again the union does NOT do the hiring and firing. You people keep blaming the union for poor employees. Thats all on the company they hired them. Unions cant have a different set of rules for each employee as far as union protection.

Correct. But...............it's the unions that negotiate items into the contract that prevent termination without progressive disciplinary action. I have seen it in a contract that an employee has to commit the identical infraction three times within a one year period before termination can occur. Twelve months passes, new set of progressive discipline.

Not entirely correct. It's the local bench that keeps these folks (duds) around. When the contractors call for labor they reach out to the local to fill slots. The contractors have NO way to vet what they get. Travelers are the worst!!!

Unions drive cost up and lower productivity…….they suck.

Amen. If Kamala supports unions I don’t.

Unions are collectivist in nature. That in itself gives them the inertia to be harmful and to handicap an economy.

In some instances unions exercise a free hand to operate as a monopoly on labor. And that's okay? No one else gets to operate as a monopoly. If there were at least competing unions, it might all be much more equitable but I won't be holding my breath. As far as I am concerned, they can all go to the devil where they belong.

Because of an old court decision, unions are essentially immune to laws that prohibit terroristic activity. That's bulls**&* and needs to be changed.

I’m an electrician that worked in those industries (non union) has to be the most nut busting type of work I ever worked in. If I never see the inside of a Cyrus one or any fab I’ll die happy.

But, the unions protect them after they’ve been hired and turn bad.

I’ve been at the VP level in several companies. Now gladly retired. Do you really think the CEO gives a damn about whether your family is in good shape? Nope. He only cares about the bottom line and the resulting stock price. Earnings per share is the biggest criteria and his and only his criteria. He, not you and me, is held accountable for the profitability by the shareholders.

The Executives reporting to him must have the same outlook.

Employees are one of the factors of production just as are sales and other related expenses(cost of goods sold).

I’ve owned my own business and have had to cut expenses due to market pressures. Never enjoyable.

Knowing the pressures on the top Executives to stay prosperous I believe union have their place.

By adding more pressure to stay prosperous? Nothing prosperous about parasites feeding on the host.

I've never met anyone that was a hard worker and wanted to advance their career say unions are a good thing.

Shoulda been a poll. Bet it woulda been pretty lopsided.

I was a union member in the fire service for 34 years. In all those years we only had one employee that was not a member and it was due to him having a family member involved with politics or he would have. He did contribute to our local pack fund. Without the union would not have had the equipment, safety, and pay that we did otherwise. I would not have near the health, quality of life, and retirement I do today without it. Not to mention the good done by the charitable activities and funds our local provided to the pubic. It was a good thing, but it is different than other labor unions. For example public safety employees are prohibited from striking. And with near 100% union membership there is no union/non union discord between groups. But I do understand the frustration others have with many other types of labor unions. I am sure mine was not perfect either, but I never heard anyone complain.

"Union people" are part of the ever-growing populous that believe they deserve XYZ instead of earning it. Instead of paying dues to an organization that does not have their best interest, why not just find a better employer? Maybe do some research before jumping on to a ship. If a place is bad enough to need the laborers to organize, it's likely a bad place to work.

Do unions make good people bad or do bad people form unions to start? There is a manufacturing facility nearby with a union presence (the only one around I know of) and you can nearly guarantee getting into an accident at 5:01 PM every day because they stack up at the time clock to go home and drive like maniacs. One guy I know that works there parks in the same place every day, backed into a one-way spot the wrong way because it points straight at the parking lot exit, and is in his truck driving away at 5:00 sharp (the factory is on a road I travel at 5:00 on Thursdays). If he were doing his job until quitting time, how'd he clock out and get in his truck AT quitting time. Small example but it shows the mentality of "someone owes me _____".



You tell me. You brought it up.

What are you talking about? Your question was, "Wonder if you know how much a normal auto tech makes if he's been in the business for over 30 years, is top 10 in the zone by Mark of Excellence rating, and better than 300 in the nation?"

I didn't bring this up, you did.

Union employees get the stereotype of being worthless or lazy. I’m in agreement to an extent as to their are bad and good. People/workers in general can be worthless or lazy as well. I think forum members would be surprised how many people they talk to or have met on here that are union employees…

Why do you think it is that we haven't had any responses from union members making the case for how great unions are for our country?

Union workers are too busy working to respond

I’m a very active union member, some of y’all already know this……

I’m not changing anyone’s mind.

Keep spewing your ignorance.

I knew I could count on you!

And now I know one person that's in a labor union and does good work.

Dave, what you say is true but the free market decides on how the employee compensated. Not paid enough with the right benefits or treated with respect and the person moves to greener pastures. He is not tied down. The company knows it has to compete and adjusts accordingly.

TBar, Agree on free market. You’d kinda right. However, once an employee hits a certain age, they become almost unemployable due to higher health insurance costs. A guy over 50 has an uphill battle unless he has very unique and scarce skills.

Get hurt on an assembly line and, unless you have other skills, you are probably toast.

There’s no EEOC for old or crippled up white guys.

You're right, I changed companies at the age of 58 and 28 years with the same company. Got the targeted job with the targeted company I wanted to work for.

We had a POA labor organization but I wanted nothing to do with it. As a condition of employment we had a no strike, no slowdown no lockout agreement.

So Boeing goes on strike and shuts down production of a new commercial jet. You have any idea what the average worker makes?

The machinists make $75,608 per year on average, not counting overtime, and that would have risen to $106,350 by the end of the proposed four-year contract, according to Boeing.

And the 737 max is a train wreck.

What would a new pickup cost us if it wasn’t for the union?

Then take off all the costs of regulation, taxes, and fees…..probably about 25-30% of what they cost now…

I don’t have any issues with registration fees but when I buy a vehicle from an individual and then get hit for sales tax is BS.

Your government at work, and this is both parties...

Probably my biggest gripe with county and state governments. Buy a used vehicle and pay full price sales tax, over and over again, on the same product!!! Stupid!!!

I made both of these points already but that's okay because there are like-minded people here.

Not the employer's fault. Why do they then have to pay more for an old guy that can't work? All that happens is the extra cost is sent straight to the consumer. It's very democratic, dare I say socialist to make the employer take the hit for a guy that can't work due to age. It's called the way it is. Any attempt to overcome nature is futile. I'll be 50 in a couple weeks so...