5th Circuit - https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/22/22-50915-CV0.pdf

District Court - https://casetext.com/case/grisham-v-valenciano-1
Oral Argument - https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/OralArgRecordings/22/22-50915_10-3-2023.mp3

Related video:

The Officers could have handled the situation better. The 2A activists could have handled the situation better.

I doubt many (if any) will devote the time to listen to the oral arguments, but it is well worth it.

Important not to accept that one side or the other 'could have handled the situation better'. Nothing changes if these things are not hashed out.

At the time of this occurrence the City of Olmos Park had in place an 'Ordinance' prohibiting the open carry of a loaded firearm.

That was very much in conflict with State Law and was later repealed.

But what it tells me...is that the city (officials) were hostile to the idea of openly carrying a long gun (loaded, or probably otherwise) to begin with.

This invites confrontation of an otherwise legal practice. All charges against the two individuals 'carrying' were dropped of course. Another thing that is telling.

Legal, but otherwise 2 F'ing stupid people. I get tired of the pro open carry people doing something that is NEVER going to do or make anything their doing positive. I could go into walmart and start showing shoppers my new glock , but would that be smart?

just because its legal, can also be stupid

Yep. The first person the bank robber is going to pop in the dome is the open carry nerd.

saw an idiot in wal mart recently that had his 45 on one hip and a large fixed blade on the other.

his right to do it but a total moron move imo.

This sort of thing should be no more noticeable or remarkable as someone wearing shoes. I used to go to AZ a lot to hunt as a teen and nearly every man at every grocery store had a gun on their hip. Parts of New Mexico used to be the same until the blues moved there and ruined the place.

I do open carry sometimes, but do so when wearing more professional clothing - like a suit for instance, or at least jeans, boots, and a blazer. Attire makes a big difference in the perceptions of non-citizens when they see someone wearing a gun. Also make a difference whether you're wearing a holstered sidearm, or have on a tacticool belt with every possible accoutrement you can load onto it.

My attitude about the hypothetical bank robber shooting me first is that a) he has to SEE me wearing the gun before he starts his intended crime, and b) having seen me, he has to decide whether he's going to be able to stop me before I can shoot him. I honestly think that most criminals are such brazen cowards that they'll turn and leave if they see an armed citizen rather than attempting to win an even gunfight.

colorado was open carry when I was guiding, a lot of folks carried in durango/pagosa but this was back in the early 80s.

the dude in wal mart was "show carrying" was what it looked like to me. wal mart in paris gets some good ones.

Zeek - interesting that banks used to have armed guards but then stopped. Rational was - 'no guns, no probable fire fight in the bank'. Basic liability thinking and they just write off cash losses. Same with gun-free zones - interesting, law is there to be able to prosecute, kinda a catch-all. But if the gun is used, they can prosecute anyway. Silly law makers covering their rears (liability again).

Every law enforcement friend I have say openly carrying is a foolish thing to do.

Be the Grey Man, and keep the weapons concealed.

^^^This

Agree be the grey man.

Agree be the grey man.

I can see both sides of this argument, but in the end I think it would be most beneficial if the public at large become accustomed to seeing guns openly carried without witnessing the bloodbath the anti-gun nazis claim is inevitable.

I've lived in PA for nearly 50 years. Open carry has been legal here for longer than that. I cannot begin to tell you how big a deal this is NOT. Personally I only see open carry about once a year. It is a non starter. Nobody cares. Well.... I restate that. If you don't look like you are threatening people, nobody cares. Much like constitutional carry the end of the world claims are just hot air. And yes, stupid stuff happens. Stupid stuff is all around us with everything and you can't outlaw stupid.

Personally I do not see the benefit to open carry but that is a choice a free man gets to make.

I'm good with it.

Those two look exactly like the types that would start a mass shooting. Yeah, I know assumptions and all, but assumptions keep us safe.

Back in the day, our office building had a bank on the first floor, you had to walk through the lobby to get to the stairs or elevator. We were plain clothes, the bank guards knew us, we did not open carry anywhere. I still carry, but it's not showing the world. I don't even wanna be the grey man. I wanna be the guy that looks so ordinary that people don't even notice or see me.

That is the contextual definition of being "the gray man".

Excuse me....but don't most LEO 'Openly Carry'?

Absolutely not off duty. It serves no purpose to open carry unless the person is in a uniform and it’s obvious that they would be armed. The best advantage in a gunfight is nobody knowing that you have a gun.

The best advantage is to assume everyone has a gun. By the time you're in a 'gunfight' everyone knows who is armed.....right?

Gonna have to go with the concealed carry is better crowd. Except for the rare instances that it is illegal (i.e. at my kids school), I carry everywhere, every day, all the time. I do carry open when I am at the ranch, and I don't bother to conceal when I do something like run up to the gas station or something like that. Yes, I can see the logic of determent of crime through display of strength. I prefer keeping the element of surprise. Even if the element of surprise gives me a marginally lower chance of getting shot, I'll take that marginal advantage.

As you're falling to the ground after the bank robber casually walks up behind you, produces his concealed gun and pops you in the dome because he can see your exposed gun, for that split second you may know you were in a gun fight.

Bank robbers are not the dullard cowards you think they are. For several years I responded to all of them in FW and was there during the apprehension of several of them after my Detectives filed the complaints. Bank robbery is the last act of a desperate person. 75% clearance rate on them. I remember responding to a bank on W. Seminary Dr and was there 3 minutes after the silent alarm was tripped. They walked in the front door and the first thing they did was produce a concealed gun, pop the armed uniformed security guard in the head and add his gun to their collection.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been IN the bank lobby in the last 10 years. And I expect I could go several hundred times (if not more) and NOT experience a 'Bank Robbery'.

And IF you let anyone casually walk up behind you (un-noticed) then you weren't being aware of your surroundings. I'd wager a more dangerous situation these days....is that people can't put their damn phones down for even a minute when waiting to do something. THAT (distraction) will get you killed/injured faster than open carrying anywhere.

Nobody ever thinks it will happen to them. That was why I had job security.

I'd wager my odds are about the same as getting hit by a meteorite. So I'll take those odds.

Not expecting that to happen either. Everyone choose for yourself...of course.

Noticed 3 things right away.

1. No one paying any attention.
2. No one running for the door screaming 'man with gun'!
3. Good trigger finger discipline.

If you’re going to open carry you might as well show your cards while playing poker!

Concealed carry provides criminals the maximum opportunity to make a fatal error in the victim selection process.

The whole point of open carry is NOT to be selected to begin with. Criminal moves on to a perceived softer target.

Concealed carriers always tout that 'element of surprise'. Why encourage the advances of a criminal right up to the time you HAVE to draw your weapon?

IMO....there is a right time and place for both. I carry both ways based on circumstance and need. Don't really understand why some folks think that is stupid or inappropriate, or why the 'police' are offered up as supposed experts on the subject.

I say carry as you like (within the confines of the law) and support (not denigrate) those who choose to arm themselves.

Well I have investigated or supervised the investigations of more than a thousand shootings and was tasked with knowing every aspect of what took place, as well as presenting the case to the DA’s office with my determination of self defense justification or who was the primary aggressor, so I can’t imagine why I would be considered an expert on the subject vs someone who has watched a bunch of YouTube videos. Then of course there’s the hundreds of hours or more of tactical training on the subject as well as 25+ years of carrying a firearm in a plainclothes or undercover capacity in the worst parts of a major metropolitan city. I’m sure your training, knowledge and experience eclipses mine on the subject though.

Were any of those citizens carrying with a Concealed Carry License, LTC or carrying by Constitutional Carry? Or just a bunch of criminals/gang members/dometic?

Of the cases True Billed or No Billed was there any correlation as to how a weapon was carried?

Several justified shootings involving LTC holders or just normal citizens who were carrying. Several more where the criminal snatched the open carry guys gun out of the holster just to get a free gun. That normally happened in gas stations with folks standing in line to pay for something. Before you go into situational awareness and you would never be caught slipping just stop. Nobody can be 100% aware of everything going on in a public place. Two of the gun snatches were involving a rather attractive young woman who was asking for directions while the bad guy slipped up behind him. Unless your neck works like an owl on meth, you can’t know everything going on all around you. If you’re the anomaly among numerous other people who routinely carry a firearm who thinks it’s somehow advantageous to open carry vs concealed carry, that should tell you something right there. I’ll leave you on that thought because obviously you’re the horse who won’t drink.

The majority of people choosing to carry concealed...in no way invalidates other methods of carry.

Using that logic ONLY strong side carry in an IWB/OWB would be acceptable, since 'numerous other people' carry that way.

This 'horse' drinks just fine. Just not downstream from a place someone just 'shat' in (or other dogmatic views).

I’ve never carried. Can’t say I’m all that proficient with a short gun and in an emergency situation, I would possibly do the wrong thing.


That said, wife and I (retired) spend a lot of time on the road. I always keep the Judge in the car, close to hand, when traveling.

The best thing to do when you find yourself in the bottom of a hole is to stop digging.

Any man with a FUPA should do nothing to attract attention to himself. As for the one with dunlop, I don't think his left arm could clear that massive gut to properly shoulder his "weapon".

No one is in a hole here. If you have a reasonable rebuttal....lets hear it. But you don't, so out come the 'quips' you are famous for.

If I wanted to spend the time to learn how to knap flint, I would ask you to teach me. Because you know what you're doing.

A plus 25 year Detective probably knows what he is doing, pertaining to carrying a pistol in plain clothes.

Meal Team 6 is in town.

I have carried a pistol almost daily since 1996 (28 years). As long or longer than the detective, yet I would never suppose to know what manner of carry is best for each person or adopt such dogmatic positions on the subject.

As I said in an earlier post, I've got a long list of friends in Law Enforcement. Many of them span back well before 1996. 100% of them have told me to never open carry. You are painting yourself as a target.

The concept reminds me of the geniuses who put a giant SIG Sauer sticker on the back window of their truck and then can’t understand why it was burglarized.

Same thing.

The only people I ever see open carrying are the "bubba booger pickers" looking for attention!

I've been in law enforcement since 1987. During this span I worked patrol for eighteen years while the remaining (so far) have been in plainclothes. I always carry concealed but have seen a couple of guys open carry and neither seemed to be seeking attention. Neither were they aware of their surroundings. One had his hands filled with a bag of mulch at the Lowes in Sherman. Can't shoot anyone when your hands are full. The other guy kept his back to the door while watching tires being put on his car, also in Sherman. If you want to open carry, that's great. But you need to understand that just because you are showing big iron to the world doesn't mean the world will shy away. Those of us who carry daily for a living practice our craft to stay alive and we don't make simple mistakes like those I just mentioned.

A Lieutenant friend of mine sent me a press release after they had made a huge bust, spanning multiple cities. He said "There are people that hunt people."

I told him I conceal carry, watch what people are doing, look them in the eye as they pass by me, don't cause any trouble, but ready for it if it comes.

He said they world would be a better place if more people would do that.

One of his Sergeants has a great line. "If you look like food, you will be eaten."