I think you are right. Only thing I would add is FFP needs an illuminated reticle. I can't see most of those tiny reticles on low power. I've been a hold over shooter my whole life and probably never will change.

I'm gonna test my theory on my next scope. FFP Illuminated Reticle.

I've got experience with Leupold's current crop of Mil/Mil scopes.

And I have seen more than one of them fail to track, and fail to return to zero.

How do they measure up to the others? Specifically, at a price point.

I am asking you specifically because i know for a fact they all eventually fail to track and return to zero. Depending on use. But your experience in dealing with multiple customers, who probably baby their rifle as a prized posession, how do they hold up?

And how much more or less commonly do people pick Leupold over the others?

It does matter to me. But what matters to me more, is even if it does not return to zero, will it hold zero after you sight it back in.

*edited*

J.G. Also, what have you used that has held up the longest of them all?

It's already been said. The most consistent scores are usually made in Japan

I already know your thoughts, and i am not asking for the country of origin for good glass. I also know for a 100% fact, if you dial on the turrets enough the very best scopes out there will fail to return to zero at some point.

If I could pick any one scope specifically for long range shooting it would have a horus reticle. But they are $$$ and about the ugliest thing I have looked at through a scope. Maybe some time behind one would change my mind.

But at the risk of highjacking this thread, I want to know what tracks best and lasts longest in J.G.’s personal experience. Because he’s got a better idea than any of us, what has good enough glass and yet also tracks the best and lasts the longest, of everything he has used.

My personal opinion? If it is clear and holds zero, and the reticle can take me to the limits of my chosen cartridge in the field, how well it tracks is not very important. If I was a competitor it might change my opinion.

But I bet JG knows better than any of us, what tracks the best and lasts the longest, at any price point.

Also I do nit discount your opinion or scott’s or anyone else’s. I been following Scott on here awhile too. But I asked JG.

Anyway ya’ll know what I think, I gotta back on up out of this one. If you can afford it you should buy American when available. Lots of great scopes in the $500 range from Leupold. Unless I were looking specifically for a extended long range scope that is where I would look. Otherwise it would be a Horus reticle probably burris. I admit i am not the long range expert. Ya’ll have a good un.

Burris tracks and returns to zero better than Leupold. I've seen some + $2K Leupolds fail to track and return to zero.

The scopes weren't banged around. They were mounted to a rifle and the rifle sitting on a bipod and rear bag. They didn't do what they were told.

My longest in service scope is an SS 5-20X. Raw aluminum is showing all around the turrets. It has had a hard life, and has never been sent in for repair.

I've got three scopes with NF on the side of them. Two scopes have bounced between many, many rifles without a failure. The third scope is sitting on a 300 Norma Mag, that's dialed out past a mile and come back to 100 yard zero several times.

Thank you J.G.

As has been already mentioned. Around $1K the best money spent is a NF SHV 4-16X.

Everyone worries about light transmission. Most all of them will get everyone past legal light on a game hunt. If you don't want to dial it, don't. Hold for elevation and wind, and squeeze the trigger.

Remember Bryan, if you are going to use your scope to EITHER dial OR use holdover, you will have to gather the info on your ammo to run ballistics chart.

I've also had great experiences with the Nightforce SHV scopes which JG recommends above.

Fisherman recommended the SWFA 6x. It has a cult like following on some other hunting forums for its reliability, simplicity, durability and cost.

A fixed 6, can do a whole lot of work.

A fixed 10 can do more. But can be a hindrance for a hunter. The inside 300 yard shots can lack field of view.

You got me looking hard at that 1x8 Nightforce. Or maybe that 2.5x20! THAT is a do it all scope. Edit- i mean that 2.5-20x50. I don’t think anybody else makes that.

I am sorry for derailing this thread.

I am down to owning zero Leupold scopes. But may try the new Mark4 HD as I need a lighter scope for a NRL hunter rifle. Handled one this week and it does have some nice features.
Vortex AMG is USA made and the razors are Japanese so I put them is same category as Leupold / Burris and others that have lines from different countries.
I do avoid companies such as Arken and others that are just all Chinese but it’s hard to get completely away from Chineisum crap.

It is hard to face the truth. I will take my light weight leupy and accept it for what it is, zero it and use holds. Save for a Nightforce down the road. Not gonna hate on a SWFA SS either.

My $ .02 worth....

As Bryan said, I try my best to not buy anything mfg in the PRC.

I haven't seen a single new production Leupold that the adjustments would reliably move the POI 1/4" making them a bitch to zero. However once zeroed they seem to hold zero fine.

If I had to use it you couldn't give me any FFP scope!!! Why would you want the reticle to get larger on high magnification and smaller on low magnification????

I don't trust the clicks on any CDS type scope to consistently repeat. If you need long range capability simply choose a SFP with a BDC reticle and shoot on it's highest magnification setting.

The older Bushnell 4200 scopes mfg in Japan were some of the best under $500. scopes ever built. Now all Bushnells are mfg in PRC. It's getting harder and harder to find optics mfg in Japan because so many people buy based on price rather than quality.

I've had good luck with Burris scopes mfg in the Philippines, but it looks like Burris is also going PRC for their new products. These are still some of the Philippine mfg Burris Droptine and Fullfield II out there for sale at fair prices.

I know it's out of the $500. budget, but the Japan mfg Trijicon Accupoint 3-9x40 in the $700. range and the Swarovski Z3 3-10x42 in the $900. range are great scopes. I have several of each and they have all been reliable.

I just sold a Leupold MK 3HD for about that price. It was extremely clear for the $ and I'm a glass snob. Good FOV and little to no CA, great clarity and colors.

As for POI moving exactly 1/4" with each movement of the dial, not sure I ever really noticed this with any scope. They all (including my Leupolds) moved or were very close to 1/4". When zeroing many times it's not exactly 1/4" of incremental movement I need and after a shot or two, I need one more click. No big deal, as long as the next trip out it's still on zero, and mine always are. That would be Burris and Leupold.

BDC reticles get a bad rap here, unfairly. All they need is to be properly verified at distance and know your POI for each mark. I used one for years, effectively.

I went to Leupold's CDS system 8 years ago. I gave them perfect data to build the dials. I dial it often. The most was on 9 stages, fired about 45 shots and it was perfect on hunting shots in wind over about a three hour period. I made a 550 yard shot on a coyote with it last year as my longest shot on an animal to date. On another morning coyote hunt I was 3 for 3 from a little over 220, to right at 400 yards as I recall. Mine works, but it's on a great rifle, reliable ammo and a good RF bino's.

$500.00 scope, I really like my Burris Signature HD, 3-15 x 44.

If I ever need a new scope, I'm looking at Trijicon. You're the second reliable recommendation I've heard on Trijicon in a week when discussing scopes in this price point.

Here's my issue with BDC. In SFP it is only accurate at one magnification. If you always have it on that magnification while hunting, and you have verified the dope at distance, I agree that they work well. However, while hunting, I have on more than one occasion, had the scope on the wrong magnification, and used the BDC to take a shot. Of course I missed. IMO, it is too easy to make a mistake on the zoom level with the BDC in the field. That said, I have a Burris Veracity with BDC in FFP. Love that scope. The BDC is accurate regardless of the zoom. It just so happens that my .308 load lines up almost perfectly with the BDC hashmarks. Now, put that scope on a flatter shooting rifle, or a slower, lower BC round, and I would not like it at all.

With anything, you have to use it properly. Like I said, I don't use it anymore having moved to the CDS. But when I did it worked. Most often I didn't need it and when I did my target was way out there, and scope was on max magnification.

One thing I want to mention about BDC scopes. If you have Strelok or something similar, and if you hunt at a set magnification (8x for me), you can easily determine what distance each line represents. You don’t have to shoot on max magnification.

Something else…even if you have BDC or just a standard reticle, holdover is what I used for decades, and still do with a couple of rifles. My 270, when sighted in at 200 yds will drop 7” at 300 and 20” at 400. The 220 Swift numbers, when sighted for 200 yards are 5” at 300, 15” at 400. Those are drops that a decent hunter can use without problems. Of course knowing the distance is rather important, and if you suck at reading the wind (as I do), good luck. Most of my shots are inside 300, so the drops are easy to determine, and the wind hasn’t ruined my day in a while.

BDC reticles get a bad rap because they are a marketing gimmick. Just like mil dots in a 1/4 moa scope, that are not true mil within the mag range of the scope.

I can get by on a Leaupold fine duplex just as well as a BDC reticle, plus have a very fine aim point for precision. That’s why I chose it for my air rifle, you can’t consistantly kill stuff cleanly with an air rifle without a high level of precision.

But some BDC reticles are better than others.

A scope with half mil subtensions is awesome because you can zero a half mil high at 100 and you basically have a 200 yard point blank range or better with most deer cartridges, and about a mil high give or take at 300. A BDC scope, maybe or maybe not. If they come with a diagram of the scale of the reticle at a given magnification, sure.

I guess you haven't shot long range very much.

Zero a Mil scope perfect at 100 yards.

There is zero purpose in zeroing a Mil scope high at 100 yards.