Im not a breeder guy, but I see value of a fence, for multiple reasons outside of deer. Cattle and general neighbor issues being a big part. If I had money to fence my ranch now I would but it has a completely difference use, I would fence out all wildlife(deer, elk and pronghorn) to increase winter crop yields. I have high winter wildlife utilization and low fall.

Nearby our lease two older gents own 2,500 acres. They had previous successes and became very choosy. They got tired of passing on 160's and then seeing them entered by the much larger neighbor in Los Cazadores. HF went up. They get up when they want, fix breakfast and then corn roads and either set up by it or drive the place. For whatever reason, they now routinely take 7 1/2 and 8 /2 year old giants - leviathans really. They feed proetein during the off season and have no corn feeders - zero. it is unlikely you will ever see a photo of their deer. Bomber natural genetics, patience and HF has produced what they want. For one, I am happy for them.

When I got on our lease, the east, south and west were high fenced. The four miles of north fence was not. Well know STX family came into some big $ with minerals and upgraded cattle to Aisan. Foreman convinces owner to get HF on the 1.75 miles if fence between us. We thought it was going to hurt us. The hunters on the other side of the fence were dismayed with the HF, they told us so. They didn't like it at all. This really changed our deer patterns and the quality of our hunting has improved a lot, a whole lot. Funny how it works.

Doesn't really matter----my opinion. It is fair chase if the owner believes it is fair chase. I just wish I had 2500 acres to hunt on high fenced or not, much less 25,000 acres.

Its funny how what i said about average movement of bucks in the rut based on a study ate some people up. I never said many of the things that were stared after, and i never tried to equate the study i quoted to exactly every situation…i was just using some data to say on 25K acres a buck in rut is unlikely to use most of that acreage during the rut.

Couple of things: the 1600 acre ave was per buck, and they all covered different areas. I am sure a lot overlapped, but certainly some didn’t. This was a study done on 50.000 acres, and typical deer population in the study area had a buck to doe ratio between 1 and .5, meaning there were between 1-2 doe per buck in the study population.

Studies are not natural, have never claimed to be. But they give good data that CAN be used in the field, and when multiple studies show the same things, it becomes pretty solid evidence of behaviors in the field. To ignore the factual data and say its just kids doing research and not applicable in the field shows either a lack of willingness to change ones understanding (stubbornness) or a lack of understanding of the scientific method (ignorance). Sometimes studies dont make sense, and diving into that study to see its weaknesses warranted. Sometimes studies butt up against our firmly held beliefs, and thats when its time to try to reconcile why we think differently from what the science is showing.

Being able to see the forest thru the trees is tough for some people, and for some its tough to see the trees thru the forest. I have realized in life some people want to see only the trees and some only want to see the forest, and some only want to see the horizon on the other side of the trees and forest. Some of you know better and instead of making valid arguments you choose the lazy approach to just make your point easier. Be better.

…..poor little boy …. got his feelings hurt….

This defines exactly who you are.

Show me where I have ever mocked anyones animal or hunting? You cant, but I can pull dozens posts of you taking lots of shots.

if you cant take the hypocrisy of your actions then maybe a hunting forum isnt for you. Calling others animals and hunts canned hunting and then going scorched earth all over the forum trying ruin an outfitters livelihood because you didnt get a bull, is very ironic….

your statements and actions not mine.

Apparently comprehension is difficult for you. Not getting a bull is only a portion of why I warn other THF members about James Duran. If you could comprehend….you’d see he had been stripped of his guide license….ticketed….gone to trial(multiple times from my understanding ….was dishonest in many ways and to my knowledge, he continues to be under the scrutiny of NM game wardens.

Several member of THF PMd me after the fact to say they had the same issues and how terrible his operation is.

I just put it out to be sure others don’t do the same. And there have been several that have thanked me for the warning.

I have nothing against HF ranches. I have hunted a couple and helped manage one. IMO I think there needs to be a minimum acreage allowed. I think anything less than 500 acres is like hunting in a back yard. Just how I felt at the time. It is not fair chase. I have seen the negative side of HF also with a lease I was on for one season in Baird. 3 sides of HF and 1 open end that was maybe 600-700yds wide. Never saw a sign of deer on the property much less one in person. I did see alot of signs of predators. Old guy at the local store said the predators run the deer into the corners for easy kills and the deer will not go into that area anymore. Made sense. I know it affects the movement of wildlife dramatically. Takes years for the fenced area to become some what normal again in my experience. I dont know what the magic number is but I would say around 2000 acres at least. There is definitely something different when you have no clue what could walk by. Either way as long as the hunter feels good about it then thats all that matters. Its their tag or money paid.

Not that i would, but i could HF my 400 acres and would have a very difficult time hunting a specific deer.

Not all parcels are the same.

Oh I remember distinctly you going scorched earth because you saw only cows but no bulls… Lol

Regardless of the outfitter it was pretty comical And still is comical due to how you troll others on how they hunt, yet have “canned” type expectations

It wouldn't take as long as you would think. But its not a given you are correct.

Let’s all meet up and fight it out to decide who’s right or wrong. Winner takes all and the topic won’t be brought up again for 5 years where we have a Fence Fighters 2, battle of the haters brought to you by Mangisil and Monkey Butt..

I will join the fight and you can pick which side I am on. That is about the only way I could ever come up with a decent amount of acreage. Just let me know when and where.

Someone would probably hit your left leg with a 2X4 with a nail in it

I don’t fight, on the internet or in real life. Last thing i wanna do on my day off is roll around on the ground with the likes of any one of you’s!

leases i hunted, largest 1,100acers ta smallest 200acers.
It was pretty much sit in stand & wait. Each had own area, stand, feeder, food plots.
For me part of hunt is looking for signs. Trails, scraps, bedding, rubs. Mature deer
learn ta pattern hunters, (areas were brown its down), stay away from the open food plots feeders.
Skirt theses areas using the wind ta check for does.

Freerange. Have had several deer, nice bucks, live ta see another day. Buy jumping low fence.
Fair chase. Today's hunters have rifles reach out 200-500+yrds. Scopes zoom in, upclose & personal.
Public hunting land & low fence is more fairchase.

Posted a deer taken, crossbow, & few had thar sly remarks. Each deer tis a trophy.

Putting a fence around the 400acers would change movement greatly.
Deer use roughly 10% (small percentage of area) bed, travel for food.

Just my still got cheap posts.
tis sure will get plenty of feed back

400 acres high fenced? 1 feeder per 100 acres, up to how many acres a guy has, put a camera at the feeder….and I promise you will know every deer around. He will find a particular feeder and for the most part; come to it like clockwork. Not that that’s a bad thing.

have you every depopulated a ranch?

No, should I? Is it fun, because I like fun and shooting things. Give me a call and I will depopulate any thing you want. Do cows count; I depopulated one of those the other day.

One of our neighbors is a breeder and has just over 700 acres. About half of that is his ranch headquarters and breeding pens, the other half is native habitat. He wanted to supplement his breeding operations with commercial hunting and attempted to wipe out the native herd. He never came close. He would release the bucks he didn't sell and most of those have died of old age not from hunters. After a few years he shuttered his commercial hunting operation because success rate were so low. Just because you know the bucks are there doesn't mean it is easy to hunt. Ease or difficulty of hunting has much more to do with population density and terrain/habitat then the height of a fence.

pro tip - use a suppressor

Surely you jest….

400 acres is big enough that with the proper habitat there will be deer you never see, even within a hf.

Just for example, i have 6 feeders on 400 acres, and i know if i had that HF and wanted a specific deer, i could walk tjay whole property in a day and try to find that deer. But what is keeping the deer from walking the property as well? It would be one big circle and i would lose quite badly due to my inability to walk thru woods with100% stealth. And yes, on 400 acres there is plenty of natural browse that i see deer from stands that simply never ever come in to feeders.

I was wondering, You made it sound easy.

Unless it was the Amazon, completely under water, I would find him…way too many tricks I’ve learned for 400 acres. With that a dead subject; I want to depopulate something!!