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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: EagleEye55]
#8981681
01/03/24 06:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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No it’s not a pen and anyone who thinks with logic and not emotion would agree…. But many hunters let emotion drive their thoughts and actions. They also get emotional about their lack of success and the High Fence argument is a way to make themselves feel better…..
The hunter that understands the true goal of wildlife management with high fences is to keep deer out, not in so the land isn’t overgrazed…. in theory it could be a Pen if it constricted its home range well below Normal, there for it lacks free-range AND if habitat allowed for you to survey from truck or foot it removes fairchase. But in terms of this thread and 25k acres neither condition for a pen is met. AND part is the biggest part to make it a pen. The first part defined free range. If I can drive around and “without” mistake and count every animal, it lacks fairchase, and Id call that a pen. I have a friend thats trying to kill every whitetail this year on a 900 HF. I dont think he gets it gone, way too thick. Especially since he has already exceeded his initial survey by 50%. I would not call this a pen. How can it be if you cant define or kill everything thats on it. Does he need help? Lol Lol, he has all family and friends working on it. Its a really cool place. Im pumped for him and his family.
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#8981695
01/03/24 07:13 PM
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The fence affects their natural ability to disperse regardless of size of the pasture. Yes deer can learn to live within those confines but they can not disperse, if wanted, naturally.
At some point that fence affects their movement. Lets say a wildfire breaks out, you think the fence won't affect their escape routes, it sure could.
Plenty of studies also done showing migration and how fences affect that, we can all site studies that support our cause. What of those deer within that huge pen used to range from say just inside the new fence to outside on a neighboring property about a mile away? Now a fence cuts their range in parts, they learn to use the new pasture but still can not use their historical free range. Those deer used to roam, now they stay within a confined area. The high fence still affects free range and natural dispersion.
Use the same argument and replace fence with city, or urban sprawl, or road, or whatever man made thing you want...bottom line, people affect animals and historic migration patterns are historic for a reason, but they do not make anything present or future. Even birds with "free reign" of the migration patterns don't follow the exact same migrations every year and different areas will get hit better than others in the "historic migration zone". Plenty of record book deer in St. Louis, urban drawn hunts every year because of the traffic accidents and property damage. Those bucks are beyond tame. You better stay out of his way, a rutty buck in the suburbs with no fear of man is a hazard. But hey they are “free range” and it’s “fair chase” but completely isolated geographically. And even a single strand of barb wire gets a funny look from a pronghorn. That is why there aint dead pronghorns all over the county roads like whitetails in the rut. I bet the western hunters can vouch for that lol
Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 01/03/24 07:18 PM.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981706
01/03/24 07:27 PM
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Not saying pronghorns don’t cross fences but i have never seen a whitetail exhibit any consternation about jumping a typical “low” fence.
Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 01/03/24 07:28 PM.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981709
01/03/24 07:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,312
Wytex
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Not sure what you mean about the pronghorn, fences can affect their migration in extreme snow events. Sheep wire also can affect their movements and why we have areas without it along migration paths. Seen many jump barbed wire fences and go under, they know how. Throw in say 4 feet of snow and see what happens. Those city deer are free to roam outside the limits, no high fence keeping them there. Now slap a high fence around that town and see what happens.
Good discussion actually, I enjoy the discourse. Good points made by many here on both sides.
I'm not against high fence but do understand how it can affect natural animal movement, regardless of pasture size. And no I would not call thousands of acres a pen by any means, but put a high fence around it and it is affecting animal movement and dispersion, even if on the edges or fence lines.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: Wytex]
#8981726
01/03/24 08:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,154
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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Not sure what you mean about the pronghorn, fences can affect their migration in extreme snow events. Sheep wire also can affect their movements and why we have areas without it along migration paths. Seen many jump barbed wire fences and go under, they know how. Throw in say 4 feet of snow and see what happens. Those city deer are free to roam outside the limits, no high fence keeping them there. Now slap a high fence around that town and see what happens.
Good discussion actually, I enjoy the discourse. Good points made by many here on both sides.
I'm not against high fence but do understand how it can affect natural animal movement, regardless of pasture size. And no I would not call thousands of acres a pen by any means, but put a high fence around it and it is affecting animal movement and dispersion, even if on the edges or fence lines.
I have only seen a handful of times, never when pressured though, I dont think their gait allows them to jump much when running. Every one I've seen jump, tried through first and then jumped over. with that said I don't have a migratory herd, I have pulled in to a section trap, shut the gates, pull my truck in front of low water crossing and watched them run in a circles testing new fence. Its someone entertaining until i remember who gets to patch the fencing they tear up.
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981750
01/03/24 09:13 PM
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I see it all the time on the road. I know that is why we don’t have so much roadkill of pronghorns. You can ride down the highway and see a pretty massive herd of pronghorns and no roadkill. But whitetials? All the time.
I hit a whitetail on I-35 south this year maybe 8-10 miles south of Minneapolis. In a little suburb called Lakeville I think. At peak traffic hours too, people flying passed me on the shoulder etc. Even a big interstate like 35 is literred with deer carcasses right now all through the midwest.
Pronghorns? Rarely. I am not convinced they are that much smarter, I see them all the time when i run out west.
Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 01/03/24 09:14 PM.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981753
01/03/24 09:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2016
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Wytex
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Bad news folks, looks like we're sending some COLD down your way next week or so. That dreaded polar vortex is materializing. Stay warm.
Got your point now BCH. I was very surprised on a pronghorn hunt down in NM one year. Stopped to watch a decent buck cross the road and he cleared the fence I though he would go under like it wasn't there. Left me laughing. I adjusted the way I usually hunted by knowing they would jump down there. Honestly haven't seen that in Wyoming as of yet. They all try to go under up this way. Smooth wire on the bottom really helps them.
I have seen antelope round ups, for collaring where they can and do jump the 10ft enclosure fence.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981758
01/03/24 09:38 PM
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I know they can clear a fence, I have seen it too. But not without some consternation. But I have never seen a whitetail stop at a fence, look at it, and crawl under. I think pronghorns have to be motivated by something more to even try.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: 10 Gauge]
#8981827
01/03/24 11:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 22
DSpur72
Light Foot
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Light Foot
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I personally hate them - but it's not because of what is on the inside of it. If you want to shoot a 180-inch buck in 25 acres or 25k acres - your conscience - your money - you spend it.
My gripe about high fences is the disruptive nature and the impact it has on wildlife - outside the fence. I border about 2 miles of high fence and some areas of my ranch have not seen a deer since that fence went up. I understand deer (and other animals) are adaptive by nature and to a degree, they have. With that said, a deer doesn't put itself in a position with no way out (if you understand what I'm trying to say). Unfortunately, when that fence went up (roughly 10 years ago), it created areas that are not conducive for a deer to feel safe - I presume?? I have no other answers as to why deer have vacated those areas and will not come back. I realize my perspective will differ from others and the high fence guys are going to hate - I am just speaking from first-hand experience and the impacts that a high fence has on me, personally. They probably fenced you out for a reason Guess there are clowns in every forum...
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981893
01/04/24 02:06 AM
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25,000 acres is 40 square miles. Men have literally gotten lost and died in parcels of land far smaller than that between improved roads. Highly motivated men, who were experienced in orienteering and in the best shape of their lives, carried two military compasses, and probably studied that map and drew in boundaries and check points all over it. When it comes right down to it, most people have no understanding of what 25,000 acres looks like. But apparently a whole lot of public ground deer will spend their entire lives inside a quarter of that.
That high fence would not impede anything inside of it. It impedes everything and everybody else that wants what’s inside of it.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981903
01/04/24 02:36 AM
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Joined: May 2005
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Huntmaster
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Not that anyone cares but they have their reasoning; The Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase as the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals. In 1983, the Club adopted a policy that made whitetail deer and other species taken in escape-proof enclosures ineligible for its records books. 1 acre or 50,000+
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8981906
01/04/24 02:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,552
Texas buckeye
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Well, we all know of deer that have escaped a high fence ranch, so does that by definition mean a high fence ranch is OK? Asking for a friend….. 
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: Huntmaster]
#8981913
01/04/24 02:47 AM
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Not that anyone cares but they have their reasoning; The Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase as the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals. In 1983, the Club adopted a policy that made whitetail deer and other species taken in escape-proof enclosures ineligible for its records books. 1 acre or 50,000+ And that is important if you worry about your name in a record book.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8982029
01/04/24 02:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 418
doggit
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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Fences and walls don't work to keep animals in or out. Heard the demrats that live behind or inside them say so.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8982054
01/04/24 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,520
tlk
THF Trophy Hunter
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Not that anyone cares but they have their reasoning; The Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase as the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals. In 1983, the Club adopted a policy that made whitetail deer and other species taken in escape-proof enclosures ineligible for its records books. 1 acre or 50,000+ I for one have no issue with B&Crockett's rules or record book. Qualifying an animal for their book is super rare and difficult and I have been proud for years to have done so. IMO it is not bragging or vane - it is an acomplishment
You can't fix stupid
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: tlk]
#8982063
01/04/24 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,590
onlysmith&wesson
THF Trophy Hunter
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Not that anyone cares but they have their reasoning; The Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase as the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals. In 1983, the Club adopted a policy that made whitetail deer and other species taken in escape-proof enclosures ineligible for its records books. 1 acre or 50,000+ I for one have no issue with B&Crockett's rules or record book. Qualifying an animal for their book is super rare and difficult and I have been proud for years to have done so. IMO it is not bragging or vane - it is an acomplishment Well said. Recognition is a basic human need. Anyone that has ever posted a picture, shared a successful hunting story that they are the subject of, etc.....is satisfying their need for recognition.
An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8982082
01/04/24 05:08 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,565
Huntmaster
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I also think/know if someone had a 25,000 high fence ranch; with one fence surrounding the property, there are going to be multiple fences within the high fence to “channel or funnel “ deer or cattle to a specific location. Feeding is usually done at specific places. Properties operating for a profit are not going to have multiple Joe Blows coming different days of the week, and not know where the deer or game is located on that 25,000 acres. The Cotton Mess ranch, which is 10,000 acres will make sure you get your $4500 elk or $75,000 elk… you choose, you go, you shoot. And B&C will not recognize those elk.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8982086
01/04/24 05:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,081
sprigsss
Pro Tracker
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I personally look at it as shooting livestock, so I have no interest.
I don't care what others choose to do with their land and their livestock.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8982090
01/04/24 05:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
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sprigsss
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I don't understand one thing though.
If i have a feeder on 3 acres and erect a high fence entrapping a few deer, TPWD will probably cite me or make me release those deer at a minimum.
Is there a minimum acreage where it becomes legal?
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: sprigsss]
#8982097
01/04/24 05:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,552
Texas buckeye
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I personally look at it as shooting livestock, so I have no interest.
I don't care what others choose to do with their land and their livestock. But livestock are not state property like deer are....so making the semantics jump from a texas controlled game animal to livestock is a really lazy argument. Now if you are talking exotics behind a HF, then you can talk all day long about them being nothing more than livestock, because the state has stated they don't care about exotics....
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#8982101
01/04/24 06:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 16
mike1234
Light Foot
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Light Foot
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Modern bows, rifles, scopes, ammo, feeders.... whats the difference?
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#8982115
01/04/24 06:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,081
sprigsss
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I personally look at it as shooting livestock, so I have no interest.
I don't care what others choose to do with their land and their livestock. But livestock are not state property like deer are....so making the semantics jump from a texas controlled game animal to livestock is a really lazy argument. Now if you are talking exotics behind a HF, then you can talk all day long about them being nothing more than livestock, because the state has stated they don't care about exotics.... I actually agree, see my 2nd post. Guess what I should have said is hunting inside a high fence "feels" like shooting livestock IMO. I'm not necessarily saying its always easy. I certainly think hunting on a 25k high fence property would be a fair-chase hunt, its not like you are going to corner an animal on 25k acres with nowhere to escape. I just don't understand how someone fencing in a state owned deer on small acreage is treated any differently than larger high fence ranches.
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: mike1234]
#8982129
01/04/24 06:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
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Modern bows, rifles, scopes, ammo, feeders.... whats the difference? They are virtue signaling. Most of the time, anyway. The rest are just jealous. Send them on an all expenses paid trip, i promise they will make meat and make a trophy. Might still poo poo it on the internet 
Joshua 1:9
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: Huntmaster]
#8982147
01/04/24 07:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,154
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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I also think/know if someone had a 25,000 high fence ranch; with one fence surrounding the property, there are going to be multiple fences within the high fence to “channel or funnel “ deer or cattle to a specific location. Feeding is usually done at specific places. Properties operating for a profit are not going to have multiple Joe Blows coming different days of the week, and not know where the deer or game is located on that 25,000 acres. The Cotton Mess ranch, which is 10,000 acres will make sure you get your $4500 elk or $75,000 elk… you choose, you go, you shoot. And B&C will not recognize those elk. I have actually hunted a Texas +-25k HF ranch. There was no funneling or HF cross fences. Just perimeter fencing. One of the harder hunts for WT’s Ive been on I hunt a CO LF ranch and pass a min of 10 200-330 archery bulls… every year. We have killed 3 370 bulls in two years. Biggest difference CM is cheaper, and you can grab a rifle in archery season. Success rates per weapon are about the same. B&C is a JOKE. It has completely lost its way. The whole point of the scoring system was to highlight areas with exceptional age class, nutrition and genetics. Now you pay to enter your paid for trophy to highlight yourself not the animal or management/conservation efforts.
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Thoughts on high fence ranchs?
[Re: HunterGuy]
#8982161
01/04/24 07:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
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No difference between that and hunting a truly large Texas ranch that uses similar management practices. The ones with the deepest pockets will always have the best access to the best properties.
There is no such thing as guaranteed kills without a truly penned animal. But there are some that won’t take your money unless you are successful.
Joshua 1:9
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