What about turkeys???

Sorry, I had too lol

if a deers core areas is 800 -1100 acres and the ranch is 25k, and you can only hunt <10 acres at most at a time… how is the fence restricting its evasion. how many properties can you run a target buck down in a truck or on foot?

well if you are using FMJ’s and a trench with corn in it, is it ethical or efficient.

I would love to hunt 25,000 acres, so many places to hunt and hopefully different deer to be seen. If you ask me about a smaller high fence place, I don't think my answer would be the same.
Near our lease there is a 600-acre place that was sold 2 years ago. Always had hunters on the property. The new owner fenced 2 sides with high fence, he did not own the other. Makes no sense and there are no hunters this year. Know this is different type of comment than was expected but is still regarding high fence.

I find it almost funny that successful individuals will HF their neighbors so they can continue to be successful.

"Don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house"

Where do you find the two definitions you cite, one as technical? If these are your opinions, that's fine. We all own our hunting and can call it what we want. I have my own beliefs, but if I were looking for technical definitions as you cited, I'd want to know the source. Boone & Crockett comes to mind, if I wanted someone else's technical definition.

No dispersion,.
Hunt what you want but high fence is not free range. Fair chase- open the gate and let them flee while hunted then maybe fair chase.

Buying meat at the store is hardly a viable argument for high fence. We all know where that meat comes from.

Even 25,000 acres does not allow natural dispersion.. That fence affects animal movement to and from the property at some point.

B&C definition is their opinion, even then its open to interpretation. They also are a business, that fund raises off controversy.

Do you also support their definition of Climate change and their initiatives?


free range and fair chase are not the same… Or we could kill deer from a helicopter

My response was a question to TXTrophy on the source of his technical definitions. Had he cited a source, such as B & C, I wouldn't have asked. I only used B & C as an example of a known source. The only climate initiatives I am in favor of would be found on the platform of the Republican Party.

I have seen people pull big bass out of a managed stocked lake and be proud of them like they grew there naturally....and never heard one person say "well thats a stocked pond and not open to the public waterways". Most are just super proud about the catch and take pics, but some even mount them on a wall.


Why is a deer so different? They are still state of texas game....their rules still apply, but I guess people get their measuring stick out (and I am not talking about a tape measure) and get their feelings hurt when one comes from a stocked "pond" while another comes from the "great lakes"

As long as it is done legally, why do we bicker about where or how someone hunts?
I draw the line at illegal hunting. But anything legal, lets try to stick together and not give the anti's any fodder for their fight....and posts like this are most certainly seen by joe public.

So in TX with relation to whitetail deer, 25k/39 sections or greater than 6 miles squared doesnt exceed natural dispersal by majority for the majority of TX habitat?

Evan Mcoy did a Callaghan ranch study of 22 yearling bucks and they showed average of 2.7 miles with a low 1.2 miles dispersal. Not all bucks disperse though. The bucks that didnt disperse had a smaller home range also of those that did at a touch over a section.

mature buck home ranges- STX Callaghan 1200 acres- King 1600acres(via Michleson), ETX 240-880 acres(via Halls study). These numbers generally shrink the older a deer gets.

my point in this post is it is not as clear cut as people want to make….on either side of the debate.

The fence affects their natural ability to disperse regardless of size of the pasture.
Yes deer can learn to live within those confines but they can not disperse, if wanted, naturally.

At some point that fence affects their movement.
Lets say a wildfire breaks out, you think the fence won't affect their escape routes, it sure could.

Plenty of studies also done showing migration and how fences affect that, we can all site studies that support our cause.
What of those deer within that huge pen used to range from say just inside the new fence to outside on a neighboring property about a mile away? Now a fence cuts their range in parts, they learn to use the new pasture but still can not use their historical free range.
Those deer used to roam, now they stay within a confined area.
The high fence still affects free range and natural dispersion.

Interesting, I'd like to read these. Are they available to the public? I would really like to know the time of the year, amount of hunting pressure they were under and if the rut was in play. As you know, I hunt about 17k acres, low fence. The best hunting is near the property line. During the rut, all bets are off as to where the bucks are. They may be on our place pre/post rut, but leave if they get a whiff. So, my hunting would be made much easier with a high fence along this area.

yes just google tx dispersal

Dr Mickey Hellickson has a few summaries but main projects were done by McCoy, Hall and Kroll. I wish each property study include aerial overviews

I haven't found home range or dispersal study for your or my country yet, but beccause of farming fragmentation i bet its very large

Use the same argument and replace fence with city, or urban sprawl, or road, or whatever man made thing you want...bottom line, people affect animals and historic migration patterns are historic for a reason, but they do not make anything present or future.

Even birds with "free reign" of the migration patterns don't follow the exact same migrations every year and different areas will get hit better than others in the "historic migration zone".

if you exceed dispersal area you dont effect it, if you want to argue over the few outer fringe deer that are mostly likely to dispersal in ward to better habitat and feed, ok, but this subject was focused around an almost 40 section TX property

Texas deer dont roam in a western sense, if they did we wouldnt have home range deer studies on LF and piles of historical photos of age progression

Interesting, I did find one you cite. It stated that yearlings established new home ranges of the same size, from the center of their original home ranges during "Autumn". Also, the older the deer, the more likely they were to establish new ranges during "Autumn". This was only comparing yearling bucks to forked spikes. So, it stands to reason that a 4-5, even 6 year old is very likely to establish new ranges given the opportunity. No surprise there, we all know how big old bucks get to be big old bucks. A high fence would prevent this natural movement. It's like you just told DLLALLDER in the current active thread, that during the rut bucks follow the wind. A high fence stops this.

It’s his only way to matter on this forum in his pea sized brain …..

Dispersal happens at young age and that is it. Older bucks can and will travel during the rut, but essentially have a home base area they use during the spring-summer and fall-winter, usually not too far from each other and sometimes it is just s shrunk down area of the other. But oldr bucks do not go thru dispersal like young bucks do.

Why?

The purpose of dispersal is to prevent bucks from breeding their mom and sisters. This is a natural instinct to prevent (too much) inbreeding in the deer herd. An older buck who has already moved away from its mama and sisters doesn't need to keep moving to prevent inbreeding.

The very interesting thing in the genetics world we are finding out is it is very likely bucks won't breed their progeny. How or why this is probably relates to the glands and hormones, and the amazing senses deer have, but in large genetic studies over generations, there has not been any identified cases where a buck bred a doe he created in a previous generation...I do not know if they looked for intragenerational breeding in that study, but the study mentioned in thousands of genetic samples, of known deer, not one case of inbreeding was discovered. Pretty impressive what nature does, even on high fence ranches where these studies have been conducted.

no it focus’s on yearlings because autumn is when they are kicked off momma, this is the action of dispersal we are talking about,

Mature bucks dont disperse, Rutting grounds is still with in home area, You can look up rutting area size also, its covered in home and core studies. Home and core over lap. Older a buck gets the smaller his home and core range become. Proven by a multitude of studies. You are hypothesizing that deer core area changes, it doesnt, unless habitat is lost. Now they may not use part of it because of more dominate buck, pressure or predation issues(like lion moved in) but it does not change overal

My comment was factual in how Bucks scent check locations with in their home range when in rut. Nothing more nothing less.

No it’s not a pen and anyone who thinks with logic and not emotion would agree…. But many hunters let emotion drive their thoughts and actions. They also get emotional about their lack of success and the High Fence argument is a way to make themselves feel better…..

The hunter that understands the true goal of wildlife management with high fences is to keep deer out, not in so the land isn’t overgrazed….

in theory it could be a Pen if it constricted its home range well below Normal, there for it lacks free-range AND if habitat allowed for you to survey from truck or foot it removes fairchase. But in terms of this thread and 25k acres neither condition for a pen is met.

The AND part is the biggest part to make it a pen. The first part defined free range. If I can drive around and “without” mistake and count every animal, it lacks fairchase, and Id call that a pen.

I have a friend thats trying to kill every whitetail this year on a 900 HF. I dont think he gets it gone, way too thick. Especially since he has already exceeded his initial survey by 50%. I would not call this a pen. How can it be if you cant define or kill everything thats on it.

Does he need help? Lol

Heck, I once hunted a 60 acre pen for hogs that were trapped and put there (talk about captive game, if you want to call pigs game animals and not just nuisance animals)....had two groups covering the 60 acre pen and not one of us even shot a pig, only shot came on one pig running across a road and it was a clean miss.

There isn't anything wrong with hunting in a HF as long as you know what you are getting with the hunt. something advertised as a fair chase hunt in a 10 acre enclosure with scant habitat is not what it is advertised. I would have no problem with advertising of a 25K acre enclosure saying it was fair chase (even tho I know it couldn't be entered into any books, I am not into that kind of thing anyway, just clarifying for the purposes of this discussion and the intent/definition of free chase), even with scant habitat. It is all what you want out of the hunt. Some want to show up and shoot something. Some want the thrill of whats out there. Some want the excitement of a big buck down and some are just happy to see and take pictures of deer..

As long as its legal, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.