I haven’t killed a deer in 3 or 4 years. Haven’t seen one that I wanted on the wall. A devastating 4 year drought took out a lot of wildlife. That was about 5 years ago and the herds are still replenishing. It wouldn’t hurt to take one but I need the does. I’m mostly seeing bucks that need a little more time to reach their potential. Most will be legal next year. Dang few does seen anyway and I don’t know why.

Actually, I realize that I enjoy hunting and don’t have to kill anything to enjoy the hunt. But, it’s about like kissing your sister. It’s still a kiss but it’s like going fishing and not getting a bite.

Estimating the age and overall health of the spike might be easier with this photo.

You need to call and talk with this guy, he researched and worked on cwd for years, ran the state lab up here. You are dead wrong on the scrapies part. Hank Edwards is his name.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond to the article. Unfortunately, Mr. Gore misinterpreted most of the original science cited in his writeup! I've attached the journal articles he referenced to this email, and although both are "heavy reads", that I wouldn't recommend unless you are having trouble sleeping at night. If you do wade through them, you will see how Mr. Gore jumps to conclusions that are not supported by the authors. If on the other hand you are sleeping just fine, let me correct a few misstatements from the article...
CWD is not scrapie and scrapie is not CWD. There are several theories that CWD originated from scrapie (just as BSE did in Europe), which could be correct. For the most part, prion diseases are very specific in regards to the species they infect, with little cross-over to other species (also known as a species barrier). Scientists have learned how to overcome the species barrier by directly infecting the brain of the test animal, which bypasses an animal's normal defences to disease. But sometimes, one passage of the agent through the brain isn't enough (strong species barrier) and they use the brain from the first experimentally infected animal to infect another (two passages). By passing the prion through two infections, the prion adapts to the new species and is able to cause disease. This is how they were able to get CWD to infect sheep; by making two passages of CWD into Suffolk lambs. If scrapie and CWD were the same disease, the sheep would have been equally susceptible to CWD as deer were to scrapie; not to mention the animals could have been infected naturally, rather than injecting the brain. Mr. Gore also states that deer are susceptible to scrapie by oral infection, but I can't find any scientific references to back that up.

Finally, Mr. Gore states that CWD and scrapie are the same based on results from the western blot assay, which actually isn't what the authors are reporting. While the western blot results suggest that CWD and scrapie are similar, the origin of CWD still has not been determined, and more research is necessary before making such a claim. It should also be noted that CWD is having an effect on our deer populations and has been documented (by a full pathological examination) as a cause of death in hundreds of deer and elk in Wyoming.

Wytex, what is Gores first name?

That deer is 1000% a baby!

The two deer in my OP appear to be about the same age.

My thoughts are the same as the TPWD. Decisions on shooting spikes should be made not on what you believe they could be in the future, but on what they should be today, both being relative to other deer in the area. One is based on blind hope, the other on clear observation.

all kerr showed was if you take a pedigreed 180” STX breeder buck and line breed it to its offspring, that its off spring will be larger as a % then a random yearling Hill county spike offspring that was line breed same way. Note they never cross breed the two lines…..

and runt studies in all mammals shows yearling observational data is worthless

It is even more compounded in a more natural environment where breeding times, feed and weather conditions are more extreme.

Dan,

have you ever managed a property for whitetail deer for any appreciable length of time?

I'm curious to know what you are basing your opinions on; actual experience or just what sounds good ?

Yeah, not a believer in the “once a spike, always a spike” theory. Besides, with Texas deer, aint much meat on a young spike.

Those looking to learn more about why the TPWD encourages hunters to take spikes in certain Texas counties should click on the link below. The photos shown are truly quite telling in terms of the role of genetics in antler development. Now if you're one who somehow believes deer that live in pens are somehow different in terms of genetic impacts from those who don't, the results of the Kerr WMA Study would be a waste of your time.

Link

I would encourage you to focus on the comments and photos that appear in the "Results of Selection" section of the report. A key finding, which could only be found in a controlled setting, is that spikes that were produced by does that were fathered by spikes have less genetic potential. Of course, there will be spikes that develop good racks in later years because of the genetics of the buck that sired them. But this doesn't negate the clearly observed, negative impact of reproducing does that were fathered by spikes, rather than bucks with two forked antlers. Simply put, the Kerr Study has given hunters an indicator of deer that have poor genetics through the mother and grandfather. And in comparison, young bucks with two forked antlers are a good indication that both the mother and grandfather carried good genetic potential. The end result is better harvest decisions based on removing young bucks with less genetic potential relative to other bucks in the same age class.

The antlers shown are not a natural occurrence in any form. the are genrations of inbreeding. No dispersal genetic influence or even doe influence

They line bred a 160” + STX orgin breeder buck of documented hereditary to STX does. And then rebred his daughters to him

the other group was they took a hill country spike and line breed his daughters to him.

The finding was that the STX breeder bucks line breed offspring antler scoring where an average x percentage larger than a random hill country spike line breed off spring….

They never cross bred for a third control group, or took deer from same geographical genetics


they study only proved the outcome they wanted. STX breeder bucks has better genetics as far as a percentage of B&C then random Hill country spikes

And likewise, outcomes that don’t support preconceived beliefs are often the driver of those who challenge the data.

You’re arguing with a bunch of folks who have actual experience in growing big deer by citing a 50 year old line breeding study.

And you’re brash enough to talk about pre conceived beliefs….

If the local legends want to let every spike walk on the their properties, they clearly have every right to do so. But thankfully, they’re not in a position to make the rules for everyone else.

Your question implies that I should somehow hold those who feed, raise, and harvest deer as if they're livestock in high regard. Let's just say I value the outputs of those who have spent years studying Deer Ecology and Management so that I can apply what they have learned in my own little part of the world.

When I want to learn(almost all the time) I look for input everywhere I can. My personal experience is in there but too small a sample size for me. I listen to anyone my ears get close enough to, including professionals and anyone with experience in the field. I have even had people with zero deer knowledge offer common sense ideas that I missed because of blindness from being too close for too long.

Value the outputs of those as long as they coincide with what you believe as fact.

The Kerr Study was a singular study done in the 70's. Its been disproven so many times, if you want to look at a study the University of Mississippi conducted one that showed the exact opposite findings of the Kerr Study.


Even QDMA does not promote the shooting of yearling spike deer.

Just save everyone some time and say that you believe what TPWD says as Gospel, without question, and anyone with contradictory evidence is wrong.