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Have compound bows reached an apex ? #8943259 10/25/23 02:02 PM
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Started shooting compounds in the mid 90’s. Most high performance bow then IIRC would shoot in the 265 fps range with hunting arrows.

Then we got to 280, then 300 now we are able to achieve 310’s in a hunting weight arrow with a bow that will IBO at 340ish.

But in the past several years, the flagship bows seem to be stuck around the 340 IBO range. 12 years ago Bowtech had the destroyer 360 that IBO’d at 360 fps but was a very harsh bow to shoot.

Has physics and technology reached a peak on performance and shoot ability at the 340 IBO range or are they going to break through the ceiling eventually?


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943313 10/25/23 03:33 PM
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Whats IBO?


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943323 10/25/23 03:54 PM
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That point was reached several years ago. 360 to 370 IBO is about the max that can be gptten from a bow with the materials available. Onve that was figured out, they started working on making them smoother draw, shooting, noise reduction......

PSE had a 370fps IBO bow while I was still working in Archery in 2017 that was listed at 370fps IBO

It was a lot harsher draw cycle at 72lbs than a a couple bows listed at 350fps that had 80lb draw. A few tried it wanting the fastest and after a few shots said NOPE it is not fun to shoot.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943339 10/25/23 04:16 PM
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I did not know PSE had a 370 fps IBO bow.

What was real world speed on that? Buddy has a Mathews V3 that is 342 IBO. With a 470 grain arrow he is getting 311 fps. That’s the fastest bow I’ve personally seen in a hunting set up.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: freerange] #8943477 10/25/23 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Whats IBO?


(Supposed to be a 'standardized' way of comparing speed between bow models/mfgs)

What is the difference between ATA speed and IBO speed?

For those with questions regarding ATA/IBO velocity: ATA speeds are 70 lbs, 30 in. draw at 5 grains per lb. IBO speed is commonly believed to also be tested at 70/30. However, in actuality, the IBO standards allow for speeds to be tested at poundages as high as 82 lbs as long as the arrow is at 5 grains per lb.

Last edited by QuitShootinYoungBucks; 10/25/23 08:14 PM.

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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943501 10/25/23 08:55 PM
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Thanks, Quit.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943522 10/25/23 09:21 PM
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They really hedbtheir apex for me a few years back. I went a different direction.


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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943533 10/25/23 09:31 PM
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think they have hit peak with current limb technology in terms of price point. Im sure there is a better material but market hasnt reached that price point yet

I like the current focus on draw cycle and shot experience. Pulling through draw cycle @ 75 lbs feels like 60lbs compared to my old bows


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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8943626 10/25/23 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
think they have hit peak with current limb technology in terms of price point. Im sure there is a better material but market hasnt reached that price point yet

I like the current focus on draw cycle and shot experience. Pulling through draw cycle @ 75 lbs feels like 60lbs compared to my old bows



Agreed

My Elite is set at 80 lbs and smoother to draw than my Halon 32 was at 69 lbs, and that was a smooth shooting bow.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943639 10/25/23 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
I did not know PSE had a 370 fps IBO bow.

What was real world speed on that? Buddy has a Mathews V3 that is 342 IBO. With a 470 grain arrow he is getting 311 fps. That’s the fastest bow I’ve personally seen in a hunting set up.


I do not know what the real world velocity of that bow as but it was a much harsher draw cycle than an Elite, Strothres and Mathews I shot at 80lbs. Mater of fact I could shoot those but could not shoot the PSE at 70lbs.

.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943781 10/26/23 04:47 AM
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I think they hit the apex about three years ago with the PSE Xpedite NXT. Nothing else out there offers the combination of speed/power and shootability as these bows. I am very biased.

Elite might make the “most shootable bow” butat a sacrifice of 20-30 real world FPS and no 80 pound limbs available lol.

This Xpedite at 80 pounds draws about like a Brute set at 70, but with about 50% more power lol. I don’t know what to tell you. Unless Hoyt puts an 80 pound limb on that Z1S. That is another incredibly smooth speed bow, more quiet than the Xpedite. But not available in 80 pounds frown


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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943792 10/26/23 08:41 AM
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For Texas whitetails speed doesn’t matter as much as quiet. I could care less about speed.

Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943825 10/26/23 11:52 AM
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I'm still shooting a Bowtech 360 set to 60 pounds. I find it to be easy to draw and it's a little over 300 fps with heavy hunting arrows.

Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: ntxtrapper] #8943890 10/26/23 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
For Texas whitetails speed doesn’t matter as much as quiet. I could care less about speed.



Agree, but those bows were not designed strictly with whitetails in mind.

Antelope, Mule Deer, and Elk, its better to have a little bit more speed for flatter trajectory.


You have to remember that the Western 3rd of the country accommodates a wide variety of species, whitetails being the least of them.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8943994 10/26/23 04:03 PM
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Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.

Last edited by freerange; 10/26/23 04:04 PM.

At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8944000 10/26/23 04:10 PM
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Chronoed at 329 fps with a 454 grain arrow. My top three pins are 20, 37, and 50 yards and i have10+ yards of wiggle room for errors in range on all of them.

I can hold those three pins on a deer at 40 yards. But i got an LRF anyway, i would not be afraid to take a 60 ysrd shot.

In my mind i have the ultimate compound bow for hunting North America with the very best arrows and inserts, and the ultimate broadhead for whitetails. My whole rig, would have probably cost $2,500 if i bought it new in a shop.

But I would rather hunt with my $130 35 pound recurve, with a riser built up with 2 sided tape and somewhat crooked wooden arrows. My cheap wood arrows weigh over 600 grains and probably fly 120 feet per second. It’s just more fun.

Not for the challenge either. I have onky killed two whitetails in all of my life, one was just a fawn. I need all the help I can get.

It is purely for the fun factor

Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 10/26/23 04:27 PM.

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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: freerange] #8944111 10/26/23 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.

For me it was hogs. My first two bows didn’t pack near the punch that a 300 fps hunting set up had. When I got a more powerful bow and arrows with stainless 60 grain outserts I started getting pass throughs and was able to reuse arrows. One deer season I killed 27 hogs with a bow. Gets expensive if your breaking arrows on every hog.

Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: freerange] #8944205 10/26/23 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.


All animals are built different, react different, live in different terrains, etc.

The bow you would want to shoot for antelope, elk or mule deer,where you can expect a longer shot, would ideally be one that has a flatter trajectory and therefore less margin of error. A fast bow can deliver a kill shot on an animal if you mid judge the range a bit. A slower bow has less margin of error and the same shot could result in a miss or a wound.

The faster the bow, the more energy it has everything else being equal. Allows you greater selection of broadheads and ups the odds of a pass thru. A fast 60 lb bow is more powerful shooting the same arrow than a slow 70 lb bow.

It’s important to have a quiet bow, but it’s not the sole aspect to consider. My recurve is quieter than my compound but I’ve had a deer completely vacate the space it previously occupied at 12 yards when he was alert and I took the shot. My compound shooting 290 fps, he would have been dead before he thought to move.

I misjudge the distance by 5 yards with my compound, it’s not a big deal within 60 yards,on most animals it’s still delivering a lethal shot. I mis judge 5 yards on my recurve, the arrow is going either under or over him.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8944230 10/26/23 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.


All animals are built different, react different, live in different terrains, etc.

The bow you would want to shoot for antelope, elk or mule deer,where you can expect a longer shot, would ideally be one that has a flatter trajectory and therefore less margin of error. A fast bow can deliver a kill shot on an animal if you mid judge the range a bit. A slower bow has less margin of error and the same shot could result in a miss or a wound.

The faster the bow, the more energy it has everything else being equal. Allows you greater selection of broadheads and ups the odds of a pass thru. A fast 60 lb bow is more powerful shooting the same arrow than a slow 70 lb bow.

It’s important to have a quiet bow, but it’s not the sole aspect to consider. My recurve is quieter than my compound but I’ve had a deer completely vacate the space it previously occupied at 12 yards when he was alert and I took the shot. My compound shooting 290 fps, he would have been dead before he thought to move.

I misjudge the distance by 5 yards with my compound, it’s not a big deal within 60 yards,on most animals it’s still delivering a lethal shot. I mis judge 5 yards on my recurve, the arrow is going either under or over him.


If i call it 5 yards short with my recurve i could send it straight into the dirt lol


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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8944310 10/27/23 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.


All animals are built different, react different, live in different terrains, etc.

The bow you would want to shoot for antelope, elk or mule deer,where you can expect a longer shot, would ideally be one that has a flatter trajectory and therefore less margin of error. A fast bow can deliver a kill shot on an animal if you mid judge the range a bit. A slower bow has less margin of error and the same shot could result in a miss or a wound.

The faster the bow, the more energy it has everything else being equal. Allows you greater selection of broadheads and ups the odds of a pass thru. A fast 60 lb bow is more powerful shooting the same arrow than a slow 70 lb bow.

It’s important to have a quiet bow, but it’s not the sole aspect to consider. My recurve is quieter than my compound but I’ve had a deer completely vacate the space it previously occupied at 12 yards when he was alert and I took the shot. My compound shooting 290 fps, he would have been dead before he thought to move.

I misjudge the distance by 5 yards with my compound, it’s not a big deal within 60 yards,on most animals it’s still delivering a lethal shot. I mis judge 5 yards on my recurve, the arrow is going either under or over him.

TxTro, I basically understand most of that but it doesnt address my question( I dont think.) I understand there are tons of things to consider but my question was meant specifically for the comment about "quiet vs speed" and you said, paraphrased, "certain species speed is more important for flatter trajectory".
If a person is able to cleanly kill an antelope at 60 yards by having a faster setup, then why wouldnt he do the same for a WT at 60?
Maybe Ill help you answer.....are you saying its easier to get close to a WT so you are willing to give up some speed to get quieter?


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8944344 10/27/23 01:19 AM
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Regardless, until they start building them from something a lot more snappy than fiberglass, I really do think the compound bow has been pretty much maxed out. Waiting for some solid carbon limbs, or IM6 or whatever the latest greatest bass rod material is. I am not real sure if it would even improve anything.


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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: freerange] #8944366 10/27/23 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.


All animals are built different, react different, live in different terrains, etc.

The bow you would want to shoot for antelope, elk or mule deer,where you can expect a longer shot, would ideally be one that has a flatter trajectory and therefore less margin of error. A fast bow can deliver a kill shot on an animal if you mid judge the range a bit. A slower bow has less margin of error and the same shot could result in a miss or a wound.

The faster the bow, the more energy it has everything else being equal. Allows you greater selection of broadheads and ups the odds of a pass thru. A fast 60 lb bow is more powerful shooting the same arrow than a slow 70 lb bow.

It’s important to have a quiet bow, but it’s not the sole aspect to consider. My recurve is quieter than my compound but I’ve had a deer completely vacate the space it previously occupied at 12 yards when he was alert and I took the shot. My compound shooting 290 fps, he would have been dead before he thought to move.

I misjudge the distance by 5 yards with my compound, it’s not a big deal within 60 yards,on most animals it’s still delivering a lethal shot. I mis judge 5 yards on my recurve, the arrow is going either under or over him.

TxTro, I basically understand most of that but it doesnt address my question( I dont think.) I understand there are tons of things to consider but my question was meant specifically for the comment about "quiet vs speed" and you said, paraphrased, "certain species speed is more important for flatter trajectory".
If a person is able to cleanly kill an antelope at 60 yards by having a faster setup, then why wouldnt he do the same for a WT at 60?
Maybe Ill help you answer.....are you saying its easier to get close to a WT so you are willing to give up some speed to get quieter?


Whitetails are more apt to "jump the string" than some other species of game like pronghorns, elk, muledeer and bear for example. Jump the strring is a reaction to noise in actuality they do jump but the arrow almost always hits high or goes over the top of the animal as it drops to run off at the shot. I think we went through this calculation on your crossbow decision back when you were looking at crossbows.

I have seen a nice 4 year old 10pt do that with a 330fps crossbow at 40 yards. I hit part of the tree at a point I could not see that was behind the deer but did not touch the deer. A deer reacts to the noise and starts to drop in a out .2 seconds. Bryans arrow has gone about 20 yards before the deer starts to drop. A nervous whitetail deer could be dropped below the arrow or hit in the spine or above on a good lung shot at that range, even as fast as his bow is. The quieter the bow the better for whitetail deer.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: freerange] #8944375 10/27/23 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.


All animals are built different, react different, live in different terrains, etc.

The bow you would want to shoot for antelope, elk or mule deer,where you can expect a longer shot, would ideally be one that has a flatter trajectory and therefore less margin of error. A fast bow can deliver a kill shot on an animal if you mid judge the range a bit. A slower bow has less margin of error and the same shot could result in a miss or a wound.

The faster the bow, the more energy it has everything else being equal. Allows you greater selection of broadheads and ups the odds of a pass thru. A fast 60 lb bow is more powerful shooting the same arrow than a slow 70 lb bow.

It’s important to have a quiet bow, but it’s not the sole aspect to consider. My recurve is quieter than my compound but I’ve had a deer completely vacate the space it previously occupied at 12 yards when he was alert and I took the shot. My compound shooting 290 fps, he would have been dead before he thought to move.

I misjudge the distance by 5 yards with my compound, it’s not a big deal within 60 yards,on most animals it’s still delivering a lethal shot. I mis judge 5 yards on my recurve, the arrow is going either under or over him.

TxTro, I basically understand most of that but it doesnt address my question( I dont think.) I understand there are tons of things to consider but my question was meant specifically for the comment about "quiet vs speed" and you said, paraphrased, "certain species speed is more important for flatter trajectory".
If a person is able to cleanly kill an antelope at 60 yards by having a faster setup, then why wouldnt he do the same for a WT at 60?
Maybe Ill help you answer.....are you saying its easier to get close to a WT so you are willing to give up some speed to get quieter?



At 60 yards a whitetail is much more likely to not be in the same spot as he was when the arrow gets there as an antelope, mule deer or elk.

Whitetail are hunted in ambush type situations, whereas elk, mule deer and antelope are more likely ( but not always ) to be taken using spot and stalk methods, usually at longer ranges than one would shoot a whitetail at. ( bugling elk can be shot at very close range however).

Most bows today are fairly quiet. Some speed bows are louder but all the flagships I’ve shot have usually been around the same decibels with a typical hunting weight arrow, so you’re not giving up one for the other.

Last edited by txtrophy85; 10/27/23 02:17 AM.

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Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8944561 10/27/23 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Im not understanding why the species matters. Speed is speed and quiet is quiet. Those two and the distance you can accurately shoot are all factored in it would seem. Your accuracy is whatever it is. Quiet would matter until they are too far away to hear. Speed would be two fold it seems. Flatter trajectory and ability to get to the animal faster before it could move. School me on how the species factors into that thought process.


All animals are built different, react different, live in different terrains, etc.

The bow you would want to shoot for antelope, elk or mule deer,where you can expect a longer shot, would ideally be one that has a flatter trajectory and therefore less margin of error. A fast bow can deliver a kill shot on an animal if you mid judge the range a bit. A slower bow has less margin of error and the same shot could result in a miss or a wound.

The faster the bow, the more energy it has everything else being equal. Allows you greater selection of broadheads and ups the odds of a pass thru. A fast 60 lb bow is more powerful shooting the same arrow than a slow 70 lb bow.

It’s important to have a quiet bow, but it’s not the sole aspect to consider. My recurve is quieter than my compound but I’ve had a deer completely vacate the space it previously occupied at 12 yards when he was alert and I took the shot. My compound shooting 290 fps, he would have been dead before he thought to move.

I misjudge the distance by 5 yards with my compound, it’s not a big deal within 60 yards,on most animals it’s still delivering a lethal shot. I mis judge 5 yards on my recurve, the arrow is going either under or over him.

TxTro, I basically understand most of that but it doesnt address my question( I dont think.) I understand there are tons of things to consider but my question was meant specifically for the comment about "quiet vs speed" and you said, paraphrased, "certain species speed is more important for flatter trajectory".
If a person is able to cleanly kill an antelope at 60 yards by having a faster setup, then why wouldnt he do the same for a WT at 60?
Maybe Ill help you answer.....are you saying its easier to get close to a WT so you are willing to give up some speed to get quieter?



At 60 yards a whitetail is much more likely to not be in the same spot as he was when the arrow gets there as an antelope, mule deer or elk.

Whitetail are hunted in ambush type situations, whereas elk, mule deer and antelope are more likely ( but not always ) to be taken using spot and stalk methods, usually at longer ranges than one would shoot a whitetail at. ( bugling elk can be shot at very close range however).

Most bows today are fairly quiet. Some speed bows are louder but all the flagships I’ve shot have usually been around the same decibels with a typical hunting weight arrow, so you’re not giving up one for the other.

Was figuring I would let it go but now ive got two more questions.
WHY would a WT be more likely to be gone than an antelope? If its because they hear the shot then we are back to quiet and speed both being important. Or they are just more wary...?
Your last sentence you said "not giving up one for another" (speed and quiet). If thats the case then why not want both(I assume you do but its hard to get both without a tradeoff of some kind.)


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Have compound bows reached an apex ? [Re: txtrophy85] #8944601 10/27/23 03:48 PM
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It’s not hard to get both. New bows are both quiet and fast. You don’t want a fast bow that sounds like a .22 going off but you don’t want a bow that that is quiet but has the trajectory of a thrown rock either.


Animals are different and they react different. A whitetail is a jumpy animal by nature. So are coyotes and bobcats. Antelope are not near as jumpy as a whitetail and will normally hold for a shot when a white tail deer will hear a noise and take off.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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