Had we been United would we have survived

Hell no we wanted their land period end of report

You compared our country to terrorists and Hitler. Terrorists and Hilter sought to exterminate people based on race, religion and ethnicity. The United States of America never did that and I stand by my statement that you should be ashamed of yourself and removed from this forum for your statements.

I still can't believe those Romans salted the grounds of Carthage.

So if you do the same things but it’s for property, it’s OK? In this country we killed noncombatant women and children who were Christian farmers. We did it to take their land. Was that OK too? You can be patriotic and still admit that our country has also committed atrocities. Sure, we wish they hadn’t been committed but the fact of the matter is that they were. It would be wrong to try and, like the revisionists, alter or erase that part of our history. It is what it is. We as a country are in a better position because of many of those atrocities, but that doesn’t make them any less atrocious. Israel is in a better position because of what Hitler did. But, that does not make them celebrate it.

Israel as a state maybe. Those people, no. Hitler did not benefit them.

If not for the holocaust, I don’t believe the Jews would have a state, much less in Israel. The world had no sympathy for Jews until the Holocaust. We shamefully, just like many other countries, turned refugees away despite the fact that we knew what was going on (at least to some extent) in Germany.

"If not for the holocaust, I don’t believe the Jews would have a state, much less in Israel." Pretty sure that's whay I said what I said.

Dang though, now it's come out we did the Hebrews so wrong and have found yet another path where we as nation were so terrible. Misguided peoples resting on the shoulders of our great forefathers picking apart eveything that did not go right while overlooking all that was so good. I don't get it. With the way some of you guys think, not sure if I could stand living here.

Who's "overlooking all that was so good?" I'm not saying we are a bad, evil country. We're the greatest country in the world. But pretending we don't have skeletons in our closet would be living in a fantasy world. That's something a Democrat would do. Like I already said we've come a long way and (for the most part) we're getting better. We get better by recognizing our mistakes.

Emphasize whatever you want - it's all about choices.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me when in our history the United States of America ever did anything to put us on the same level as terrorists or Hitler, as you did. We didn't come to this country with the purpose of genocide against the natives. Terrorists came to our country with the sole purpose of killing Americans. Hitler rounded up Jews with the purpose of killing them. If you really believe what you are stating, you are a party to it and perpetuate it by living in this country and enjoying the benefits of the "atrocities".

The United States of America should never be compared to terrorists or Hitler as you did.

in Vietnam and Afganistan and in other places, the US Military has often been disparaged for not going for the jugular. Comon sentiment is non-military decision makes resistance to make the horrific choices so necessary when engaging in warfare with the desire to actually vanquish an opponent. You know, a step on their neck mentality. Evidently not an issue back in the Indian fighting days and being criticized for it now.

People make some intersting observations when looking in the rear view mirror.

Hitler rounded up and killed based off a religion ideology , not because they wouldn't assimilate into the culture. Indians had a choice of assimilation, relocation or die fighting against western culture

As a country we (our government) has done some really F'd up things. From our treatment of the natives to our treatment of the Irish to our treatment of the Asians, to our treatment of slaves. I don't believe admitting this makes us "a party to it" nor do I believe that "enjoying the benefits" make us a party to it. Is a child born of a rape a party to the offense because he enjoys the benefit of life? Would you cover up parts of our history because they shed light on our imperfections? I was always taught to be a man and admit when I'm wrong. That's how I see it as a country. Don't cover things up. Admit it, get past it and get better.



I get that. And as I stated, it was a different time. The idea of war crimes was not a thing back then. Back then to kill, torture, rape and pillage was acceptable means of war. Not any more. Hitler declared war on the Jews. That doesn't excuse what he did.



But we also can't deny that some of these same offenses were being perpetrated on natives who had assimilated. Natives who changed their way of life and became Christians. But they owned property we wanted so that fact was ignored and they were murdered. The things we did were not always an act of war. Sometimes it was simply an act of convenience. Just as liberals see abortion as an act of convenience. It was a sick mindset that nowadays is almost exclusively held by criminals (or liberals in the case of abortion). We as a country (sometimes as the federal government, sometimes as a state government, sometimes as local officials and sometimes simply as citizens/settlers/etc.) have perpetrated unspeakable horrors on people simply because of their race and/or religion. Again, it's something we have to admit, get past and get better about. Otherwise we'll end up persecuting conservatives for their (our) ideology. Sound familiar?

When did we as a country do this? I've asked you a few times, you never answer.

You've really never read any accounts of our country killing Natives (Men, women and children) who were not at war with us? Bashing in the heads of babies for no reason other than the fact that they were there? The accounts of raping and killing women from all of those groups mentioned? The history of the Mormons? Do you have any idea of the way we treated slaves? I'm guessing the last time you read anything on history was in grade school. Hitler got real inventive and had the largest body count but he didn't invent unjust killing. That has been done by every government that exists or ever existed. Again, I'm not saying we're worse than any other country. Just saying that we're not perfect and shouldn't pretend to be. That's where that saying about being "holier than thou" came from. There are some good books that discuss the definition of the word genocide and the debates about which historical events would/should be considered genocide. And yes they are debates because there's not a hard, fast line. But pushing up against the line rather than crossing it is not the way people define sainthood. If you'd like some reading suggestions, let me know.

Why do you answer my question with more questions? As for the last time I read anything on history, it was a lot more recent than when I earned my Bachelors Degree in 1986.

When did we as a country do anything that warrants you comparing the United States of America to Hitler? I'm not letting you run from that statement.

Sorry. Life got really hectic for a little bit. Here is how American history is similar.

Hitler murdered Jews
Hitler killed millions.
Americans murdered thousands of Native Americans
- While many of those were believed to have been killed as combatants, history has revealed that many (maybe even most) were not. We slaughtered women and children (even babies). We killed them in wartime and in peace time. It was done by government officials and we encouraged regular citizens to do it through bounties that did not discriminate on the basis of age, gender or tribe.

How Hitler killed:

- Hitler starved Jews to death.
- America starved Natives after promising them food. In several instances we starved them and then slaughtered them when they were forced to resort to theft.

- Hitler burned Jews alive.
- America burned natives alive including the women and children.
- America burned blacks alive for menial crimes that they often were not afforded a trial for and it is generally accepted that many of these were actually innocent.

-Hitler (by way of his Nazis) mutilated Jews on occasion.
- It was common practice to mutilate slaves for trying to run away, for talking back or even for not working hard enough.

- Hitler sterilized people.
-There have been times when America sterilized people because of the philosophy of eugenics that had become popular (the same philosophy Hitler was acting upon).

Why Hitler killed:

- Hitler believed that the Jews were a threat to the Germans' way of life. He perceived them as sub-human and that as part of his war effort, they had to be dealt with as a domestic threat as they expanded Germany's power and control. Jews were viewed this way by many throughout the world for their refusal (or perhaps inability) to assimilate due to their cultural customs and religion.
- Native Americans and blacks were seen as sub-human. Although this was not the immediate impression of the colonists, as the female population in the colonies grew and the use of slave labor increased, it became necessary to justify taking territory and/or slave ownership.

- As previously stated, Jews were ostracized in part due to their religion.
- Native Americans were labeled heathens as unbelievers but this too was an act of convenience to justify taking their property. There are multiple instances where Christian natives were killed and/or driven out by America/Americans.
- The Mormons on the other hand, were killed/attacked for their religion by the American government.

- While part of the reason for Hitler's hatred of the Jews as religious, part was a result of cultural/ethnic differences (what he referred to as their race).
- Were Native Americans killed/removed because of their race? Yes and no. I believe the real reason was because they occupied land that Americans wanted. Many think that it was because of their race, religion [s] or inability to assimilate. But we've seen that even natives who converted and/or assimilated were treated similarly. The reason Americans could get away with this was because of the natives' race. If Americans could get away with doing this to other Americans, they would have (and some did).
- As for blacks' mistreatment by America/Americans, it was initially a result of economic convenience but later after the civil war, due in part to Southerners' resentment and in part to true racism.

Holocaust today:

America/Americans/colonists did many of the same things Hitler did but Hitler did all of those things at once and on a much larger scale. We would like to believe that this sort of thing could never happen again, but some people today have the same capacity for evil as he did then. Some believe that COVID was created and designed to do exactly what it did and that it was released intentionally. Some believe that people in the American government were behind this release. Some people believe that the vaccine is designed to help depopulate the globe. If any of these conspiracy theories are true, we will dwarf Hitler's numbers.

While much of my reading does agree with your statements, you did leave out a very large portion of the war on natives.

There were decades that the natives were the instigators. Specifically the Comanches. They would rob, rape, kill, maim and torture whites, like they had no regard for human life. Rachael Plummer Parker, cousin to Cynthia Anne Parker had a two week old baby that was fussing. Rachael and her baby were prisoners of the Comanche after they were stolen from Parker's Fort. The Comanches did not like the baby crying so they roped it by the neck and drug it through prickly pear by the horse, until they thought it was dead. When it was not, the 2 week old baby got a lance through the chest.

They were plenty violent on their end. Granted they were trying to keep whites out of their lands. And they did for decades, through such brutality. Think everything west of current day I-35. Whites did want to be able to settle that land. And whites did exact their own starvation and killing onto the Comanches.

No side is innocent here.

And all land has been conquered. The Comanches Conquered it from the Spanish, the Apaches, and the Tonakawa (sp). Whites conquered Texas from the Comanches and the Mexicans.

Absolutely. We need to start thinking of race as the human race. We've all done it at some point in history. The important thing is to learn from our mistakes and not repeat them.

Why are there no specific documented dates or instances of these actions you say take place committed by the United States of America? Because as a country…… never happened.

Did something happen to them?

How do you spell naivete? The mistake is thinking all humans can get along. Heck, there are different cultures withing different races. Somes are baby killers, somes allowed their wimmens to do the torturing, some had slaves, some do have slaves, somes don't believe as much in education as others, some believe it is good to have multiple wives (egad!) and on and on ad, nauseum, You'd have to whip everybody into submission to get them on the same plane.

I understand what you're saying and I don't believe we'll ever get to that point where everyone gets along. But as Christians, we should keep trying. As a country we can learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. I believe it's also important, as the OP suggests, that we take history books with a grain of salt. The victors usually write the history books and sometimes it takes a lot more digging to find resources that contradict them.