They wouldn't all succumbed at same time, wouldnt be like EHD/BT or water source issues. Be more like what we see with Bighorn and Dall sheep, where reproduction issues and fever etc chip away as they migrate.

Bovine tuberculosis is also a good example, but takes a while to have population effect. may take a while to spread through a herd, but you don’t see full effects until a long harsh winter passes through and only 1/3 of herd migrated back to summer grounds.

Screw worms in TX played hell on deer, but took a while for population effects to be widely seen

The Comanches killed or ran off every other natives from their lands. Except Kiowa.

They allowed each other a pass, and even raided together.

But no other native tribes were allowed to remain on the plains. Back to the Comanche being the master horsemen they were. And they always fought horseback. It took whites a long time to learn to fight Comanches, and for them to stay on their horses as well. Stupid old ways, the horse was to get you to the battle, and then you dismount and fight. Comanches brought a Cavalry to your Infantry fight. You lose.

I can’t speak to many of the tribes east of the Mississippi, but don’t act like the plains Indians were a bunch of happy go lucky folks who just wanted to live and let live. They were openly aggressive to Europeans as well as most other Indian tribes. The Comanche Indian were a horrible people who thrived on violence, rape and pillage. That was their entire lifestyle.

Again, I’m not here to argue about American/Indian relations. This wasn’t a discussion about what the government did to the Indians. This is a discussion about what likely happened to the buffalo instead of the commonly theory of “we just killed them all”

I need to add AZ to my buffalo apps, the Alaska hunt looks like a hell of an adventure

TT,

really encourage you to read Hornady’s report from 1887 linked above.

I think you will find it interesting reading, especially the second half of the report.

I will give it a read

You sound like an apologist. The Indian culture was, plain & simple, behind. Their way of life was suppressed so others could benefit. The benefits of Manifest Destiny continue to help the entire world.

Think of the alternative. You and your research would likely not be included in it.

No, just not willing to let history be erased.

I don’t think anyone wants it erased. Let’s just tell it like it really happened

Do you really believe that the United States of America killed native Americans because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race? No one here wants to erase history, but I don't think you have the "sickening genocide" part right.

I believe we killed them because they had what we wanted, the land from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Civilizations have been doing this since biblical times. I don't blame Native Americans for fighting us, and I don't blame us for wanting this continent. I'm glad we were superior and won. To say that the USA has ever carried out genocide puts us on the same level as terrorist organizations.

I became really interested in Native Americans when I hunted the land where Cynthia Anne Parker was found to be living with the natives that kidnapped her as a child. I've read a lot on natives, my favorite: The Heart of Everything That Is. This is the story of Red Cloud. Indians were called savages for a reason.

Whatever - just keep bringing it to theforefront. So noble. People did what they had to do so they could create a way of life which has benefitted the entire world. You benefitted from it and now, you want to wail about it. Get over it. Done is done.

Hmmmm . . . , [img]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...a4190f32264c89b3dccfb81bc24048&ei=11[/img]

Exactly. They waged war against one another, tribe against tribe, spoke different languages and basically were killing one another over the same thing the colonists eventually took from all of them. Had they been united, who knows how much longer it would have taken for us to have it all.

This is not a matter of belief, but Sherman's own words and actions, which are documented by first hand accounts and his own words. There are plenty of books and articles written on the subject, which are well worth reading. Here are just a couple of examples:

"The more Indians we can kill... the less will have to be killed the next war, for the more I see of these Indians, the more convinced I am that they all have to be killed or be maintained as a species of paupers."

"We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children... during an assault, the soldiers cannot pause to distinguish between male and female, or even discriminate as to age."


To the issue of the first post, he well understood the impact of his actions on the Indians and buffalo.

"During the years 1865 and 1866 the great plains remained almost in a state of nature, being the pasture-fields of about ten million buffalo, deer, elk, and antelope, and were in full possession of the Sioux, Cheyennes, Arapahoes, and Kiowas, a race of bold Indians, who saw plainly that the construction of two parallel railroads right through their country would prove destructive to the game on which they subsisted, and consequently fatal to themselves.
The troops were posted to the best advantage to protect the parties engaged in building these roads, and in person I reconnoitred well to the front, traversing the buffalo regions from south to north, and from east to west, often with a very small escort, mingling with the Indians whenever safe, and thereby gained personal knowledge of matters which enabled me to use the troops to the best advantage. I am sure that without the courage and activity of the department commanders with the small bodies of regular troops on the plains during the years 1866-'69, the Pacific Railroads could not have been built; but once built and in full operation the fate of the buffalo and Indian was settled for all time to come."

That comes from chapter 26 of his memoirs.

The role of the presidents in directing the military activities is more murky. A short and focused discussion is the link I posted before, which is a short read for those interested..

https://studylib.net/doc/8185838/the-frontier-army-and-the-destruction-of-the-buffalo

Pres. Grant seems to have been more influenced by corruption than anything, such as in violating the Fort Laramie Treaty.







A very uncomfortable thought isn't it?

That was 150 years ago, none of us did it, anymore than the Japanese or German people or governments today are the same as they were in WW2, but we need to remember history and work not to repeat it.

Nobody is arguing with you. You see the ills of 150 years ago while somes relish the successes the results that those ills helped to nourish.

Somes have taken the largesse created by these successes to research and document insignificant felines.

No, it's a lie you're telling. The motivation was not to kill them based on their race, religion or ethnicity as you state. We wanted this continent.

Are you saying that there was ever a time in American history that our country was on the same level as terrorists?

PLEASE do not continue to regurgitate articles, books etc and recommend that I read them. Am I to assume ALL of these references are your point of view?I don’t need printed detailed analysis. I find this form interesting because of the various points of view. Don’t agree with all of them but I will read them. As to the demise of the American Indian, it should be fairly obvious. When a superior dominating force collides with a much smaller force that will not be dominated, the result is always the same.

S&W & Walk,

Feel free to run a search to check the quotes.

They are easily found to confirm I did not make them up.

The original sources speak for themselves.

I don't believe peoples here are doubting the veracity of your quotes.

The motivation to kill them does not have to be based on race for it to be genocide. There were times that the US was as brutal and immoral as any terrorist organization. Even as brutal as Hitler. But you’re right. It was based solely on greed. Does that make America any more a representation of how vile humanity can be? No. We’re humans. Just like anyone else. Hopefully though, we (as a country) have become better.



Did being disease-ridden make them superior? Remember, the Comanche were undefeatable by the Spanish and later the Americans until they made the decision to become just as savage, brutal and immoral as the Comanches.

Tell me which source states the motivation for killing Indians was genocidal, based on race, religion or ethnicity as you state.

You stated that the United States of America carried out genocide against indians based on race, religion or ethnicity. Prove it.

Don't put words in my statement. I never said it was about greed, that's your definition.

You are stating that the country that I love, am proud of and would die defending was immoral as terrorists and Hitler. Point to a time in history when our country ever did anything on par with terrorists or Hitler. You should be ashamed of yourself and removed from this forum.

That is an interesting assumption of logic. So disease exterminated the Indians but not the invading armies and savagery exterminated the Comanche specifically. Perhaps canon, firearms and ammunition made for a much more superior force.

Maybe Jamestown taught a lesson.

Suggested reading - Empire of the Summer Moon

Not disease by itself but it’s well documented that disease was overwhelmingly the biggest factor in decimating the native population.



I love this country. I am proud of it for many reasons and am ashamed of parts of our history as well. I would die defending it too. If you looked at what our government did to innocent women and children and are honest enough to admit the parallels to what Nazi Germany did, the reason becomes moot. Although you’re right it was simply for the purpose of taking property. If someone breaks into a house and kills the entire family for the purpose of taking possession of the house we don’t call them superior. As a race, I believe humans have come a long way. People found these atrocities much more acceptable back then. That’s not an excuse but I think it’s important to keep that in mind when contemplating the past.

It’s ok to love your country but be ashamed of mistakes we’ve made. I’m ashamed of how the government is handling the J6 trials right now.