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Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... #8926744 09/30/23 05:09 PM
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...to be effective. I know we may think that it should be effective. It makes sense. Put a bounty on hogs and with enough money, people will kill the hogs for profit from the bounty, hence solving the hog problem. Reality doesn't seem to work like this, however.

Over the last couple of days, I have been reading about the Cobra Effect and Perverse Incentives (not what it sounds like).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive
https://a-z-animals.com/blog/what-i...does-it-lead-to-unintended-consequences/

Basically, there have been lots and lots of examples from all over the world where the institution of bounties has resulted in actually making the problem worse. The 'cobra effect' is an anecdotal story about trying to get rid of cobras in Dehli and a bounty being offered for the snakes. Instead of getting rid of the snakes, the bounties incentivised a cobra breeding program by locals. Once this was discovered, the bounty system ceased, and the breeders turned loose their stock and the local cobra problem ended up being worse than being better.

The same happened with rats in Vietnam where a program was instituted to pay for rats. Proof was the tail. Then officials started noticing a lot of live rats running around with no tails. The locals would cut off the tails, but let the rats continue to breed in order to get more tails.

At Fort Benning, GA, the same was found for hogs, but more with the process. Prebounty numbers were lower than post bounty numbers.
https://www.texasstandard.org/stori...hasnt-solved-the-problem-in-rural-texas/

Here is the scientific paper showing the failure...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/90013549

It just seems that either intentionally or not, bounties are not apt to help the issue.

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; 09/30/23 06:00 PM.

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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8926796 09/30/23 06:26 PM
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Interesting…

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

I think we can all likely agree that:
1) There is no way to totally eliminate feral hogs.
2) Trapping is more effective than hunting, but
2a) Trapping is more like work, while
2b) Hunting is more like fun.

So we continue to hunt hogs.


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8926836 09/30/23 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
...to be effective. I know we may think that it should be effective. It makes sense. Put a bounty on hogs and with enough money, people will kill the hogs for profit from the bounty, hence solving the hog problem. Reality doesn't seem to work like this, however.

Over the last couple of days, I have been reading about the Cobra Effect and Perverse Incentives (not what it sounds like).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive
https://a-z-animals.com/blog/what-i...does-it-lead-to-unintended-consequences/

Basically, there have been lots and lots of examples from all over the world where the institution of bounties has resulted in actually making the problem worse. The 'cobra effect' is an anecdotal story about trying to get rid of cobras in Dehli and a bounty being offered for the snakes. Instead of getting rid of the snakes, the bounties incentivised a cobra breeding program by locals. Once this was discovered, the bounty system ceased, and the breeders turned loose their stock and the local cobra problem ended up being worse than being better.

The same happened with rats in Vietnam where a program was instituted to pay for rats. Proof was the tail. Then officials started noticing a lot of live rats running around with no tails. The locals would cut off the tails, but let the rats continue to breed in order to get more tails.

At Fort Benning, GA, the same was found for hogs, but more with the process. Prebounty numbers were lower than post bounty numbers.
https://www.texasstandard.org/stori...hasnt-solved-the-problem-in-rural-texas/

Here is the scientific paper showing the failure...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/90013549

It just seems that either intentionally or not, bounties are not apt to help the issue.



Can't argue any of the above (with respect to reducing numbers). BUT.....if I can paid for hating them, it would make me feel a little better. wink


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8926900 09/30/23 09:40 PM
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10 bucks a tail is what I get down here. 10 bucks to have a bunch of rotting bodies that draw every coyote in the area is counterproductive here. Coyotes are the number #1 deer killer here.

Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8927120 10/01/23 02:57 AM
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Thanks for the read. Some time ago on the board (and other places I'm sure) there was a discussion on population sizes, growth, etc. One of the theories is that hunting actually increases upward pressure on populations. Counterintuitive, but the bounty studies support that.

I spend a bit of time in southern Georgia. You would think with all the water, thickets, lush vegetation, corn, peanuts, and soybean crops that pigs would be everywhere. Many a trip at dawn and dusk and I've never seen a live hog in GA. But they're not hunted near as much there.

Coincidence?

Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Douglas Tipton] #8927139 10/01/23 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Douglas Tipton
Thanks for the read. Some time ago on the board (and other places I'm sure) there was a discussion on population sizes, growth, etc. One of the theories is that hunting actually increases upward pressure on populations. Counterintuitive, but the bounty studies support that.

I spend a bit of time in southern Georgia. You would think with all the water, thickets, lush vegetation, corn, peanuts, and soybean crops that pigs would be everywhere. Many a trip at dawn and dusk and I've never seen a live hog in GA. But they're not hunted near as much there.

Coincidence?

First pig I ever shot was in Georgia. They're there...but we've definitely got more of em. bang


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Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8927208 10/01/23 12:23 PM
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So the underlying problem is not with the programs themselves but with the human condition of lying and cheating. Nothing new under the sun.


Just like Jesus, sometimes you gotta kill some hogs.
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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8927242 10/01/23 01:37 PM
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'Tried to attend the Kimble County Preedator Control Association meeting. (Bounties, including hogs.) Just wanted to see what it was about, meet some other folks, and maybe learn something.) Went to the location at the time listed in the paper. No one. Called the number. The guy did call me back, but he was on vacation, he guessed Fred decided not to have a meeting. He really wanted me to text him my info so he could reach out before the next meeting. I did, and I told him I had no problem paying the membership fee (which funds the bounties.) 'Never heard squat.

I have very little patience with people that don't have their $@#% together.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Creekrunner] #8927317 10/01/23 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RattlesnakeDan
So the underlying problem is not with the programs themselves but with the human condition of lying and cheating. Nothing new under the sun.


Sort of. Since the programs rely upon humans as the primary operating elements, and humans lie and cheat, it makes the program inherently flawed. The honor system isn't going to work for a large scale endeavor such as pest eradication for profit.


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8927587 10/02/23 12:08 AM
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Thanks for the links, good reading


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: RattlesnakeDan] #8931500 10/08/23 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RattlesnakeDan
So the underlying problem is not with the programs themselves but with the human condition of lying and cheating. Nothing new under the sun.

yep


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: unclebubba] #8931523 10/08/23 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
Originally Posted by Douglas Tipton
Thanks for the read. Some time ago on the board (and other places I'm sure) there was a discussion on population sizes, growth, etc. One of the theories is that hunting actually increases upward pressure on populations. Counterintuitive, but the bounty studies support that.

I spend a bit of time in southern Georgia. You would think with all the water, thickets, lush vegetation, corn, peanuts, and soybean crops that pigs would be everywhere. Many a trip at dawn and dusk and I've never seen a live hog in GA. But they're not hunted near as much there.

Coincidence?

First pig I ever shot was in Georgia. They're there...but we've definitely got more of em. bang



Yes completely agree - I have family in MO and they are making their way north, albeit more slowly. They are quite possibly the most agriculturally destructive animal in the states.


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: ntxtrapper] #8937189 10/17/23 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
10 bucks a tail is what I get down here. 10 bucks to have a bunch of rotting bodies that draw every coyote in the area is counterproductive here. Coyotes are the number #1 deer killer here.

Our coyote population is not too bad as far as I can tell. When I kill a hog, I put the carcass where I can check it pretty often. I Usually shoot 3 or 4 yotes off of it. When fawns are "on the ground", I spend a little more time watching out for yotes snooping around where the fawn are spending the night. Usually not far from where I feed them every evening smile


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Skeezix] #8937245 10/17/23 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Skeezix
Originally Posted by unclebubba
Originally Posted by Douglas Tipton
Thanks for the read. Some time ago on the board (and other places I'm sure) there was a discussion on population sizes, growth, etc. One of the theories is that hunting actually increases upward pressure on populations. Counterintuitive, but the bounty studies support that.

I spend a bit of time in southern Georgia. You would think with all the water, thickets, lush vegetation, corn, peanuts, and soybean crops that pigs would be everywhere. Many a trip at dawn and dusk and I've never seen a live hog in GA. But they're not hunted near as much there.

Coincidence?

First pig I ever shot was in Georgia. They're there...but we've definitely got more of em. bang



Yes completely agree - I have family in MO and they are making their way north, albeit more slowly. They are quite possibly the most agriculturally destructive animal in the states.



I have watched the Missouri numbers over the years. When they cut off public hunting of feral hogs, claiming that hunting disperses hogs and causes them to spread, they have roughly 7000 in the state at the time. A few years later inn 2020, they killed over 12,000 hogs despite each year proclaiming that they are winning the war on hogs despite the fact that they have caught (because trapping is the only way to get them all). I am not sure how they can have a successful culling program where the number of hogs is continuing to climb, but they do. Sure, Missouri has 30 - 40 full time state hog tappers.

And I quote:
Quote
One sow can give birth to two litters of about six piglets twice per year,...

https://mdc.mo.gov/wildlife/invasive-animals/feral-hogs-missouri
The average person can't screw up math that badly, but Missouri can. It is not possible for a hog to give birth to 2 litters at one time or to give birth to 4 litters in a year.

Colorado had a population of a whopping 350 pigs (not 3500 or 35000, but 350), divided between two locations. They allowed hunting and trapping full court press. It only took them 20 years to win the war on their two tiny groups. That culminated in 2018.


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8961029 11/24/23 07:48 PM
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There are some places that say hunting hogs makes the problem worse too.

Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: rickt300] #8961067 11/24/23 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rickt300
There are some places that say hunting hogs makes the problem worse too.


Sure, but the question would be, why? They have also found that trapping makes them worse. Why? Because trapping unencumbers land previously occupied by hogs for more hogs to move in and take over. As with coyotes, reduced population numbers and bounties resources means litters tend to be larger. When there is actual overcrowding or lack of resources, litter sizes tend to decline in size and if things are bad enough, females won't have litters. So hunting or trapping actually helps biology kick in and the species will try to rapidly expand to fill the void.

There is also the theory that hunting scatters hogs and one group will then become 5 groups. Well, sounders reform just fine. One group doesn't become 5 groups. With that said, sounders fission and fuse over time, though they tend to be matrilineal and matrilocal where all the females are related, most of the young males are as well, and there may be a couple interlopers trying to mate with females in heat.

Now, if you are talking about hunting making it worse as with the above cheating examples, then sure. Same for trapping.

I hunt for a family and the patriarch allows his buddy to trap hogs every so often. It works well, but he turns loose every hog under 35 lbs. If he can't sell it, he don't want it. So he turns it loose to grow and breed. Trappers, like a lot of hunters, want a sustainable problem.


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8961303 11/25/23 12:26 PM
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I’ve posted this before. I won’t shoot or trap coyotes. None of my neighbors will. I know they will take fawns but I have a helluva lot more pigs than deer and the pigs are more prolific.

Lots of people disagree with me. OK


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8961316 11/25/23 01:23 PM
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"Why hog bounties likely won't work"

Yessir
Not enough people on board.
Just exactly like the feeder robbing coons.
If everybody that runs deer feeders would
trap coons at each feeder, there wouldn't be
any posts on THF or any other hunting related
sites about fat cornfed coons eating up expensive
deer corn and damaging feeder timers and such.

I figured out some years ago that if I was going
to make any headway against the varmints, I'd
have to use traps. Just shooting on sight and
deliberately hunting them isn't enough
Traps work for you 24/7 and in every weather condition

Of course, nobody has to do anything, but if
things need to be changed you have to be proactive

Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8961550 11/25/23 10:36 PM
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I think there is politics involved when they say that hunting makes things worse. I'd take any article or paper making that claim with a grain of salt.

The thing about bounties on rats in Vietnam, and all the rats running around missing tails: that would be an interesting way to offer bounties on hogs. I'd have to admire anyone who could catch a hog, cut off its tail, and then turn it loose without getting trampled to a pulp in the process...or maybe I don't know hogs, up close and personal as well as I think I do.


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Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: RiverRider] #8962126 11/26/23 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RiverRider
I think there is politics involved when they say that hunting makes things worse. I'd take any article or paper making that claim with a grain of salt.

The thing about bounties on rats in Vietnam, and all the rats running around missing tails: that would be an interesting way to offer bounties on hogs. I'd have to admire anyone who could catch a hog, cut off its tail, and then turn it loose without getting trampled to a pulp in the process...or maybe I don't know hogs, up close and personal as well as I think I do.


I think it would make for interesting youtube video material.

Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8962149 11/26/23 08:41 PM
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...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: Why Hog Bounties Likely Won't Work... [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8964231 11/30/23 12:16 AM
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Georgia's problem is private land owners want your tax dollars more than they want your help killing hogs. Back when people could pretty much go hunt anywhere, even free-range their hogs, hogs weren't a problem. Can you imagine anyone branding their free-range hogs to keep others from taking them today?

Bounties nor government trapping will solve it because there's no money when solved. There will always be unintended consequences when government steps in. Cleaning up hogs requires cooperative effort of everyone with no governmental interference. Not gonna happen with as high of taxes as we give.

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