its a personal choice. With the right bullet it pretty nasty medicine for moderate ranges.

There is a 200 page thread on another forum with piles of deer, sheep, caribou, elk, blk and brown bear killed with them. The pictures show significant damage and short recoveries.

Its hard to argue theoretical with actual pictures of guys with subsistence tags piling and documenting the results.

for any one wondering 77gr TMK is what they use.

I grew up a 22-250 guy and killed alot but twist is never optimal for heavier bullets. I think there is a happy medium, especially in TX, and that medium is probably a lot lower recoiling caliber then most use.

Its hard to argue with TTS in 410. Rolling geese and turkeys with it at 45 yards is pretty impressive.

12 gauge Federal Premium 3" mags in copper plated lead #4's will do it better which is why I made the analogy.

“Better” At the age old debate what is deader than dead

I'm just waiting for the day when someone on here asks about 22 rat shot for turkeys

yes but at the expense of an exponentially larger recoil emphasis. Watching guys triple up on mallards b/c the lack of muzzle rise and low report is very interesting to watch. TSS is a very interesting shot.

The words "will kill a deer" are often used is this frequent and common debate. I once killed a deer with a 22 Short, so far that reason I've included one in the photo below. On the far right is a .270 load, one of the most popular loads ever taken to the deer woods. To the left is a .243, which for a long time was considered the lightest load for making ethical kills on white tails. Then we have the .223, which is obviously a much smaller and weaker load than the .243.

So then, if what "will kill a deer" is the basis for answering the question, then a .22 Short will suffice. Otherwise, use something that few would argue is enough to ethically do the job.

I used one as a kid 30 years ago and took many

Started both my kids w one and they each took several deer…we never lost one

I wouldn’t let them shoot one unless it was under 100 yards and broadside

I've shot a lot of turkeys and never "tripled up" on any of them.

my example was mallard and muzzle rise but..

I’m more of a call in a bird, one at a time kinda guy.

Come on, Red. “Better” means the chances of killing a deer are “better” with some cartridges than others. IF IF IF IF everything is done right then they will be just as dead with about anything. But a small and light bullet has very little wiggle room for error and other than an expert there is often a lot of error for your average guy.
Guys like Smokey, and others appear to be expert marksmen and could kill an elephant with a BB gun, and I’m not exaggerating much. But how this debate ever rages on for the average guy is ridiculous to me.

thats a really cool tan beard

No if if it here. We have had gut shots high shots low shots through bough shoulder shots… I’m not sure what other conditions we would be dealing with because we have passed those. Maybe some should come on and realize their perception of inadequate is not correct? Mind you I use to be on your side thought it was little more than a BB gun and would t work. It was kind of hard to tell my budy it would t work after I hunted with him and lived the facts. I won’t say it’s the best neither is a 243 or 270 etc. but I’ve killed tons of game with one and I know what it will do I don’t have to think.

I will say my support for the 223 dwindles rapidly depending on bullet choice and distance.

Everyone I was hunting with gave me hell over that. They said I only had enough skills to the dumb blonde one

Was the rest of him blonde or just beard? cool regardless

Just his beard. The one to the left had a blonde ring on his.

I saw that. Both are very unique and cool

First of all, I like and respect Redchevy, so know I wasn’t singling you out but your “better” comment served as a good lead in to my opinions. But now I have to point out that you just volunteered that IF IF IF the right bullet choice and IF IF IF the right distance. So I’ll add IF a good shot, IF know shot placement, etc.
All the IFs are still there with any cartridge but there’s some cushion with other choices.

I should have added the only guy I know personally who hunted with a .223 has since moved up to a .243 after a couple of unrecovered deer.

This never gets brought up about once a month.

I believe a lot of the comments on this thread are from hunters talking about what they have read. Those that shared their experiences using .223’s are giving the first hand experience that is worth listening to. As far as the comments about bullet choice matters, it certainly does. If a .223 is not effective then what does that say about archery gear? To me it is silly. I would counter by commenting that taking marginal shots with a bigger gun is more unethical than shooting them right with a little gun.

Are we still doing this? Can? Yes. Should? No.

Smokey, I agree with all that. And I would say the same thing about archery gear as I do smaller calibers. To both I say It’s fine to use them but there are better choices than either archery or small caliber if your goal is to have the highest probability of a quick kill and recovery.
I definitely agree about the poor shots with big guns vs good shots with little gun. I’m always talking apples to apples…..same guy, same situations, same skill level etc etc. Yes it works but no it’s not usually the best choice, IMO.