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Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's #8918876 09/17/23 10:47 PM
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rickt300 Offline OP
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Lots of acreage but very little hunting allowed? Looks like 30 thousand acres generally closed other than e postcard draws.
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Last edited by rickt300; 09/17/23 10:57 PM.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8919212 09/18/23 03:07 PM
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if you are close to these places. check the standbys on the hunts. For example Richland Creek has a teal hunt this Friday that you could try to standby on. most of these public land spots are going to draw hunts to help get money in on them


“All men die; few men ever really live.”
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: Landdrake] #8919424 09/18/23 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Landdrake
if you are close to these places. check the standbys on the hunts. For example Richland Creek has a teal hunt this Friday that you could try to standby on. most of these public land spots are going to draw hunts to help get money in on them


So our hunting and fishing license money, the APH permit money and now the draw hunt money are creating fewer acres for us to hunt? TPWD is steadily screwing us, don't make excuses for them.

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8919477 09/18/23 09:14 PM
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I've hunted all that years ago before it got so restricted
Used to plan my vacation around the opening day
There's a lot of culling gone on in the past that should have
been passed on to the permit holders, but wasn't.
Hog trappers were active at least one place when the rules should
have been expanded to allow more leeway for the paid
permit holders, but wasn't
There's a lot gone on at many of these WMA's that should
have benefitted the people that paid license and permit fees,
but no consideration was given to those that pay the bills.
I could go on considerably on the topic, but it doesn't help
my blood pressure any

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8919498 09/18/23 09:47 PM
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Pretty all have gone permits. i am not defending them anyway. specially after they let Fairfield Lake SP go away. what they are doing with all our money who the hell knows. talking with these park rangers and workers they hardly see much improvements


“All men die; few men ever really live.”
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8919868 09/19/23 02:37 PM
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I think they could open up more access on many of the 1000s+ acre units; several only host 1 or 2 hunts a year? if it's a money thing then a few more hunts would make more $ 1 or 2 more hunts a month at the right places could make $30k; if it is a foot traffic thing well...it is supposed to be public; if it is protection of an endangered species close off parts and do better orientation for hunter to protect habitat or whatever. I think it could be personnel and getting them at these WMAs but that could be scheduled. seems like a win/win could happen but doesn't.

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8920665 09/20/23 06:11 PM
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I think they keep a lot of these areas closed because they don't want to deal with the traffic.

It seems to me they could keep gates locked and at least let hunters in to hunt small game and archery pigs.

I will admit it's frustrating to see all the trash left on public land that's generally open for access. Of course some of that trash could be from local residents dumping.

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8920713 09/20/23 07:27 PM
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My dad and I will be hunting on the Richland Creek - Trinity Unit next month. Are there any deer out there?

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8921884 09/22/23 03:15 PM
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With a limited amount of available product (public hunting land), you have two basic ways to control overharvest. Price and access. Yes, TPWD is using the WMAs to generate revenue. The question is where that revenue is going. I don't know the answer to that but TPWD has a wide range of responsibilities. One way to rank those responsibilities, other than urgent or critical projects, is to base it on user generated revenue. But keep in mind, if drawn hunts generate 2mm a year (and I don't know what that number is), that's a drop on the bucket compared to the projects to spend it on. Does it go into quail research, deer research, public access or something else? And if it does go into access where, and how much. One of those WMAs above had extensive work done for migratory waterfowl. That doesn't help deer hunters one wit. But it's a great waterfowl source. Now, if it was open the the public it would be shot out very quickly (hunt any public area in Kansas with stale birds and you'll see what I mean. There may be 300K birds on the place but they aren't going where you can hunt until after dark). So it has to be limited. They tried that with the APH permit. But when you're looking at a $2,500 deer or $1,500 duck lease the $48 APH permit is sort of a non issue. At $48, it does limit the number of users but not enough. So you are left with increasing the APH permit fee or rationing access. This is basic economics. How do you divide up a public good in a fair and equitable manner. No matter what option you use there are winners and losers. There are more hunters than there are places to hunt. That's why a private lease costs $3k per gun and a good one is north of that.

And don't forget, just southeast of those WMAs are 100K or more of public national forest that don't require a tag, unless you want to shoot a doe.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong on this topic, but I am saying the truth is significantly more complicated than TPWD just wants to generate revenue.


No matter how high a duck flies a hammer still breaks a window.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8921962 09/22/23 05:49 PM
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Some people think of WMAs as only a public hunting area. The problem is hunting management and recreation is only a fraction of what some of these WMAs were ever intended for. I have probably hunted Engeling more time for various game than any other WMA in the state. Going all the way back to the middle Sept bowhunt draws around 40 years ago so I know the area well. As well as several trips to just fish and camp there and I will be doing a hunt there this year too. Engeling I know has multiple research projects, various land and wildlife restoration projects, College and school educational use, demonstration and training days, and non hunting recreation use. Many of those would be impossible with a free for all open hunting policy. The staff on these places are usually skeleton crews with no overtime allowed. They have their hands full as it is. I doubt any WMA was ever created with the sole purpose of public hunting opportunity. We are way down the list of goals for these areas even though we possibly present the highest demand for use of the land. And likely generate the most revenue. But I have always had a great time and a quality hunt when I did get to go there, so honesty I like it just the way it is if that is what will keep it that way. I saw what an open hunting policy did to Richland Creek the first year of "type II" hunting. It was a mess until they changed it. Trust me, y'all don't want that every year if you like to hunt there.

From TPWD. Notice hunting is only briefly mentioned with the "and to". It has always been that way.
"WMAs were established as sites to perform research on wildlife populations and habitat, conduct education and demonstrations of sound resource management techniques, and to provide public hunting, hiking, camping, bird watching and a host of other outdoor recreational opportunities — all of which are compatible with the conservation of this valuable resource."

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rolyat.nosaj] #8922175 09/22/23 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rolyat.nosaj
My dad and I will be hunting on the Richland Creek - Trinity Unit next month. Are there any deer out there?



One of my favorite GDE hunts.

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: Sniper John] #8922187 09/23/23 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
Some people think of WMAs as only a public hunting area. The problem is hunting management and recreation is only a fraction of what some of these WMAs were ever intended for. I have probably hunted Engeling more time for various game than any other WMA in the state. Going all the way back to the middle Sept bowhunt draws around 40 years ago so I know the area well. As well as several trips to just fish and camp there and I will be doing a hunt there this year too. Engeling I know has multiple research projects, various land and wildlife restoration projects, College and school educational use, demonstration and training days, and non hunting recreation use. Many of those would be impossible with a free for all open hunting policy. The staff on these places are usually skeleton crews with no overtime allowed. They have their hands full as it is. I doubt any WMA was ever created with the sole purpose of public hunting opportunity. We are way down the list of goals for these areas even though we possibly present the highest demand for use of the land. And likely generate the most revenue. But I have always had a great time and a quality hunt when I did get to go there, so honesty I like it just the way it is if that is what will keep it that way. I saw what an open hunting policy did to Richland Creek the first year of "type II" hunting. It was a mess until they changed it. Trust me, y'all don't want that every year if you like to hunt there.

From TPWD. Notice hunting is only briefly mentioned with the "and to". It has always been that way.
"WMAs were established as sites to perform research on wildlife populations and habitat, conduct education and demonstrations of sound resource management techniques, and to provide public hunting, hiking, camping, bird watching and a host of other outdoor recreational opportunities — all of which are compatible with the conservation of this valuable resource."

I hunted RC the last year it was "type II" and shot a decent 8pt. Wasn't uncommon to find very young deer or even fawn carcasses in the parking area by the lake.


FJB - Lets Go Brandon
BBB - Bring Back Better
Awake - Not Woke!
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: bhtkevin] #8922288 09/23/23 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bhtkevin
Lots of d
Originally Posted by rolyat.nosaj
My dad and I will be hunting on the Richland Creek - Trinity Unit next month. Are there any deer out there?



One of my favorite GDE hunts.

Thanks

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rolyat.nosaj] #8922729 09/23/23 11:41 PM
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Thirty years ago you could bowhunt richland for the first two weeks of archery. I saw more deer there than any where else I’ve ever hunted. Don’t know how it is now

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: DRUNK] #8923653 09/25/23 04:32 PM
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Traffic after the first 9 days was never heavy. Trash was never an issue on these WMA's.These units being the Water Moccasin capitals of the world. Notice even fishing is restricted.

Last edited by rickt300; 09/25/23 04:42 PM.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: jnd59] #8923659 09/25/23 04:41 PM
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I have some experience with the people who run the Richland Creek WMA. A young hunter killed a fork horn for his first deer ever and with a bow of course. The jackass manager a young jerk comes over and starts bitching about the kid killing a deer that was too young, for 15 minutes! The same day, opening day they had all the traffic into the WMA stopped and searched every vehicle going in and even went to the point of measuring broadhead width. I was the fourth vehicle,was there at daylight and didn't get hunting til after 9am! I believe these jerks only want to do as little as possible, have the entire area to use as a play area. I also bet these college boys are Biden voters.

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: Sniper John] #8923664 09/25/23 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
Some people think of WMAs as only a public hunting area. The problem is hunting management and recreation is only a fraction of what some of these WMAs were ever intended for. I have probably hunted Engeling more time for various game than any other WMA in the state. Going all the way back to the middle Sept bowhunt draws around 40 years ago so I know the area well. As well as several trips to just fish and camp there and I will be doing a hunt there this year too. Engeling I know has multiple research projects, various land and wildlife restoration projects, College and school educational use, demonstration and training days, and non hunting recreation use. Many of those would be impossible with a free for all open hunting policy. The staff on these places are usually skeleton crews with no overtime allowed. They have their hands full as it is. I doubt any WMA was ever created with the sole purpose of public hunting opportunity. We are way down the list of goals for these areas even though we possibly present the highest demand for use of the land. And likely generate the most revenue. But I have always had a great time and a quality hunt when I did get to go there, so honesty I like it just the way it is if that is what will keep it that way. I saw what an open hunting policy did to Richland Creek the first year of "type II" hunting. It was a mess until they changed it. Trust me, y'all don't want that every year if you like to hunt there.

From TPWD. Notice hunting is only briefly mentioned with the "and to". It has always been that way.
"WMAs were established as sites to perform research on wildlife populations and habitat, conduct education and demonstrations of sound resource management techniques, and to provide public hunting, hiking, camping, bird watching and a host of other outdoor recreational opportunities — all of which are compatible with the conservation of this valuable resource."


Interesting that you excuse them not using our license money and money paid for the APH book with our interests in mind. At the very least closing the entire areas from September to the end of April even a TPWD Nazi like yourself should consider that ridiculous. After all that is hunting season.

Last edited by rickt300; 09/25/23 04:46 PM.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8924965 09/27/23 04:38 PM
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Quote
Interesting that you excuse them not using our license money and money paid for the APH book with our interests in mind. At the very least closing the entire areas from September to the end of April even a TPWD Nazi like yourself should consider that ridiculous. After all that is hunting season.


It's not closed, just limited on access. That's a big difference. If you want to hunt any western state for Elk, save Colorado for gun and Idaho for bow, you have to draw a unit. It's all public land but you can't just hunt where you want.

I don't know much about the people at Richland Chambers. I've met them and they seem ok.

Again, you really have two choices. Hunt very crowded public land with a bunch of other hunters or limit access and draw a tag. I took my daughter to LBJ grasslands about 5 years ago on opening day. The unit we hunted was, I think, 450 acres. There were in excess of 60 hunters on that piece of land. Granted, you can find deer in those public spots but you're not going to be alone. Even in the middle of the week I've had multiple hunters walk right past my stand.

Also again, The fees generated from APH permits are a drop in the bucket in funding related to the cost of operations. I'm not saying you don't have a complaint. I am saying it's not as simple as you state.

Finally, I'd dial it back on the Nazi language. Like peeing in a dark suit, it may make you feel good but everyone else knows what the smell is.

That's about as politely as I will attempt to deal with that statement.


No matter how high a duck flies a hammer still breaks a window.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: jnd59] #8927341 10/01/23 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jnd59
Quote
Interesting that you excuse them not using our license money and money paid for the APH book with our interests in mind. At the very least closing the entire areas from September to the end of April even a TPWD Nazi like yourself should consider that ridiculous. After all that is hunting season.


It's not closed, just limited on access. That's a big difference. If you want to hunt any western state for Elk, save Colorado for gun and Idaho for bow, you have to draw a unit. It's all public land but you can't just hunt where you want.

I don't know much about the people at Richland Chambers. I've met them and they seem ok.

Again, you really have two choices. Hunt very crowded public land with a bunch of other hunters or limit access and draw a tag. I took my daughter to LBJ grasslands about 5 years ago on opening day. The unit we hunted was, I think, 450 acres. There were in excess of 60 hunters on that piece of land. Granted, you can find deer in those public spots but you're not going to be alone. Even in the middle of the week I've had multiple hunters walk right past my stand.

Also again, The fees generated from APH permits are a drop in the bucket in funding related to the cost of operations. I'm not saying you don't have a complaint. I am saying it's not as simple as you state.

Finally, I'd dial it back on the Nazi language. Like peeing in a dark suit, it may make you feel good but everyone else knows what the smell is.

That's about as politely as I will attempt to deal with that statement.


The point is that he and several others are definitely back patters for TPWD which in their eyes can do no wrong. If you had done some scouting on your grasslands hunt you could have found parts of it virtually devoid of hunters. I would like to see how license fees and APH generated funds are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of operations. Since TPWD does not manage much property overall in Texas due to most of it being private land and with their biggest expenditures being stocking fish and writing tickets please tell me about their expenditures?

Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8934479 10/12/23 09:20 PM
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TPW public hunting budget for the 22-23 year was $3,079,000. Of this amount, public hunting fees generated $2,189,000, Lifetime license fees of $125,000 and appropriated receipts of $108,000 were allocated to public hunting and federal funds of $657,000 made of the balance. Of the budget, 14 FTE were allocated to public hunting for a personnel cost $1,112,000. The next biggest budget item is other operating costs of $984,000. I'm not sure what is included in this number but I believe part of it is merchant fees for credit cards. It does not include indirect administration as that is budgeted separately.

Overall, The TPW budget for 22-23 was $649,461,000, which is a substantial increase from 21-22 due to additional federal funds. Of this amount $102,537,000 is budgeted for the stated goal of "Conserve Wildlife and Ensure Quality Hunting. $69,985,000 is budgeted for the stated goal of "Conserve Aquatic Ecosystems and Fisheries". $238,897,000 is budgeted to state and local parks. $112,922,000 is budgeted to compliance, which include cost of law enforcement, outreach and licensing. $94,934,000 is budgeted to capital projects, which includes major repairs to parks, capital acquisitions and information systems upgrades. The remaining $30,186,000 is budgeted for indirect administration, which is 4.6% of the overall budget.


No matter how high a duck flies a hammer still breaks a window.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rolyat.nosaj] #8940763 10/21/23 11:10 PM
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There are good numbers and fair chance at a nice one. Be ready to see a bunch of almost legal bucks, but put in the time and wait for a legit bruiser and you have as good a chance there as anywhere.



Dozer, mulched, and trackhoe work. Fencelines, senderos, tanks. Let me know if I can help with any dirtwork or construction.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8940774 10/21/23 11:22 PM
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I disagree with this. Having hunted there for quite a fee years, the biologist are concerned with the wildlife first. They give a very clear orientation before every hunt, now days anyway, and I've never hunted that I didn't see some jack!#* shoot a deer that is clearly under the mandatory 15" minimum, and I don't mean 14 3/4. The public is blessed that I don't get to levy the punishment for breaking rules that are as clearly set out as I believe is possible.
Rant over...



Dozer, mulched, and trackhoe work. Fencelines, senderos, tanks. Let me know if I can help with any dirtwork or construction.
Re: Gus Engling, Richalnd creek, Big Lake bottom WMA's [Re: rickt300] #8941948 10/23/23 05:45 PM
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There are plenty of other places to hunt, go find 'em. Or, put in for those draws. I drew BLB WMA two years in a row (last year and this year). It's not closed, they just regulate who hunts it, through a lottery draw (with fairly high odds apparently).


"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." - Ecclesiastes 9:10
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