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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: patriot07]
#8692241
09/21/22 04:01 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
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BigPig
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Some folks here are poo pooing they're accomplishment by denigrating them for taking 68 shots before they hit the target. Something tells me that if they were to do it again today it would take them a whole lot less than 68 shots to make a hit.
What really intrigued me was the bullet that they used. It uses really high-end aerodynamic theory and it's not a conventional bullet design. The flight time of just under 30 seconds was pretty impressive as well considering from their stated muzzle velocity the bullet at some point was probably 2,700 to 3,000 ft above the ground at its apogee. It was more like they were calling in artillery from a really weak gun then shooting a rifle. I don't mind they took 68 shots. I mind that they took that long and then certify it as some sort of record? And this is the target they shot at????? I do agree with the shooter's decision to keep his name silent. Certifying this as a record is embarassing. Wise man Target should be no larger than a person or animal or other actual real life target, and should get no more than 3-5 shots. Anything more than that is fine if you want to do it, but don't pretend that it's anything remotely meaningful or should count as a "record". Could I hit at 4.4 miles under those circumstances? Nope. Neither could these guys. Not saying I could. I am saying that having a record for rifle shooting should have requirements that make the scenario realistic and the accomplishment meaningful. I mean, technically they hit something on the first shot, maybe they should’ve stopped there and called that the target and the record now shows a hit on first shot
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692281
09/21/22 11:28 AM
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Texas Dan
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Funny how the same guys who have to “work up” a new load for a new rifle to hit a target at a few hundred yards, suddenly expect someone to hit a target several miles away in a limited number of attempts.
The only question I might have for them is how far they missed on their first attempt? Of course, that assumes it was easy to determine exactly where that first shot landed.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 09/21/22 11:51 AM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692294
09/21/22 11:49 AM
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P_102
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Your ignorance is showing again…..we believe it should be done in a limited number of attempts TO QUALIFY AS A RECORD. And what does that have to do with working up a load to make our rifles as accurate as possible?, not to mention cost savings.
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: P_102]
#8692298
09/21/22 11:54 AM
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Texas Dan
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Your ignorance is showing again…..we believe it should be done in a limited number of attempts TO QUALIFY AS A RECORD. Keep rationalizing. If you or anyone else doesn’t wish to consider it a world record, that’s completely your choice. Heck, you might even get some national publication to release your own article stating such is the case. Just don’t allow your feelings to get hurt when readers don’t give a damn how you or any of the other local celebrities have judged the accomplishment.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 09/21/22 01:07 PM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692300
09/21/22 11:58 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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redchevy
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I say it’s a record anyone who can do it in 5 shots should go get it done. Then rub their nose in it.
What is the furthest anyone on here has attempted? Is it even half?
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692343
09/21/22 01:19 PM
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603Country
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What if it had taken them 3,487 shots? I guess it would still be a world record?
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692346
09/21/22 01:21 PM
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redchevy
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: redchevy]
#8692367
09/21/22 01:44 PM
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Texas Dan
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Perhaps some simple math might be of help here. After all, none of us are actually going to try to hit a target that's 4.4 miles away. How many shots does it take to work up a load to hit a target at let's say, 300 yards or 900 ft. Of course, charts, graphs, and what "the book" lists for load performance would likely offer minimal if any guidance given the distance. A very simple interpolation would say it would take a minimum of 26 times that many shots to hit a target 4.4 miles away. I wonder if these guys used a ladder test during their effort. It's a point that brings to mind how those guys determined a 350 MOA scope base would put them in the ballpark. I mean, it wasn't like they could just dial it in using the Vortex turret adjustments.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 09/21/22 02:06 PM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692374
09/21/22 01:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 42,671
J.G.
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Once again...
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692630
09/21/22 08:21 PM
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Mickey Moose
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Imagine a doctor needing 68 attempts before getting a surgery right.
Do schools now allow 68 attempts before passing tests? [uh, actually, don't answer that because the answer is probably yes at least in some schools]
LOL, that "record" shot is stupid.
My botnet is bigger than yours.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8692634
09/21/22 08:25 PM
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redchevy
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Imagine making a doctor complete a surgery with scalpels mounted on a 10 foot pole in a variable wind speed wind tunnel.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#8693203
09/22/22 03:45 PM
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blkt2
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Imagine a doctor needing 68 attempts before getting a surgery right.
Do schools now allow 68 attempts before passing tests? [uh, actually, don't answer that because the answer is probably yes at least in some schools]
LOL, that "record" shot is stupid. Every surgery that is commonplace today started out as experimental and it took a lot more than 68 tries to perfect the techniques. My buddy is a neurosurgeon and his residency is 7 years. By the time he's considered a fully competent brain surgeon he would have performed about 6,000 procedures and in the meantime they pay him $72,000 a year. The instance that we're discussing is not really a record at all because it's unlikely to be repeatable. For that kind of range the bullet is way too light and underpowered. It is too susceptible to winds at high altitude and trust me, at one point that bullet was at high altitude. For consistent results at those distances the projectile needs to be weighed in pounds and ounces, not grains. What they did was really neat and it had to be a lot of fun but it was kind of pointless. I can't say for certainty but I suspect when dealing with those kind of ranges with that light weight equipment even the size of the pellet in the primer has an effect on where the bullet is going to hit. Even the heaviest machine guns used by the military can't consistently hit targets at that distance and when used in an indirect fire mode they are used for area denial and not for precision fire. I can't say for certain because I don't have any data to work with but I suspect to get precision hits at those ranges with something that looks like a bolt-action rifle you would need a 30 mm bore, a bullet that weighs probably three or four times as much, and it would need probably another 500 to 800 ft per second more muzzle velocity even when using a projectile that has the freaky aerodynamics as the one they used.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: blkt2]
#8693226
09/22/22 04:14 PM
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Posts: 22,566
Texas Dan
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Imagine a doctor needing 68 attempts before getting a surgery right.
Do schools now allow 68 attempts before passing tests? [uh, actually, don't answer that because the answer is probably yes at least in some schools]
LOL, that "record" shot is stupid. Every surgery that is commonplace today started out as experimental and it took a lot more than 68 tries to perfect the techniques. My buddy is a neurosurgeon and his residency is 7 years. By the time he's considered a fully competent brain surgeon he would have performed about 6,000 procedures and in the meantime they pay him $72,000 a year. The instance that we're discussing is not really a record at all because it's unlikely to be repeatable. For that kind of range the bullet is way too light and underpowered. It is too susceptible to winds at high altitude and trust me, at one point that bullet was at high altitude. For consistent results at those distances the projectile needs to be weighed in pounds and ounces, not grains. What they did was really neat and it had to be a lot of fun but it was kind of pointless. I can't say for certainty but I suspect when dealing with those kind of ranges with that light weight equipment even the size of the pellet in the primer has an effect on where the bullet is going to hit. Even the heaviest machine guns used by the military can't consistently hit targets at that distance and when used in an indirect fire mode they are used for area denial and not for precision fire. I can't say for certain because I don't have any data to work with but I suspect to get precision hits at those ranges with something that looks like a bolt-action rifle you would need a 30 mm bore, a bullet that weighs probably three or four times as much, and it would need probably another 500 to 800 ft per second more muzzle velocity even when using a projectile that has the freaky aerodynamics as the one they used. Good post. Again, it would be interesting to learn the level of variance between each shot, and how far off was the initial shot. Heck, I would have been impressed if they knew where that first shot landed. The level of variance might yield at least some idea of the overall capabilities of the setup and equipment.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 09/22/22 04:17 PM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: blkt2]
#8693282
09/22/22 05:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,807
Mickey Moose
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Imagine a doctor needing 68 attempts before getting a surgery right.
Do schools now allow 68 attempts before passing tests? [uh, actually, don't answer that because the answer is probably yes at least in some schools]
LOL, that "record" shot is stupid. Every surgery that is commonplace today started out as experimental and it took a lot more than 68 tries to perfect the techniques. But he doesn't do those surgeries solo. And shooting is not the equivalent of performing some intricate brain surgery. More like removing a skin tag. Aside from that major difference, yeah, you're right. Except that once the surgery is perfected, as you noted, it's repeatable. This shot, as far as we know, is not. Lastly, I bet if the shot were *anywhere* on the board they would have considered it a success... that's another difference to surgery. Imagine going to have a finger amputated and coming out with no arm. The finger is gone, is the surgery a success? We're derailing. 68 tries before success is still stupid. Like somebody else said, every blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
My botnet is bigger than yours.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693284
09/22/22 05:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 14,833
ntxtrapper
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This whole thread is a waste of time. Not surprised considering the source.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693302
09/22/22 05:53 PM
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blkt2
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Y'all can gripe all you like about this but the fact that they were able to hit anything other than the ground no matter how many tries they took is pretty impressive but like I said before it's kind of pointless. Given the gear that they are using they should probably start taking two and a half mile shots at a target like the one used in NRA high power thousand yard matches. I bet you they would have some pretty decent groups considering the range involved. That would be some shooting that I would be impressed with.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: blkt2]
#8693577
09/22/22 11:39 PM
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J.G.
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Y'all can gripe all you like about this but the fact that they were able to hit anything other than the ground no matter how many tries they took is pretty impressive but like I said before it's kind of pointless. Given the gear that they are using they should probably start taking two and a half mile shots at a target like the one used in NRA high power thousand yard matches. I bet you they would have some pretty decent groups considering the range involved. That would be some shooting that I would be impressed with. I got no problem experimenting, and pushing formerly perceived limits. But don't be doing an experiment and 1:68 was a success, then call it some kind of record. During load development I have made a handful of amazing groups, at various distances. Many sub 1/4 MOA, one is .115 MOA at 200 yards. Is that some kind of record for prone, bipod, rear bag? I don't know ow, I never looked it up. Besides there were no official, unbiased record keepers there to witness the shooting and the subsequent results. Only myself and the man the owns the rifle. It was a joyus occasion and we were ecstatic that we found the right load, and it shot that tight. But neither of us claimed any kind of official record.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693833
09/23/22 12:24 PM
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Texas Dan
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Could be wrong but I suspect load development had little to do with this effort. What they needed most is someone who could build enough cartridges with the most exact components in order to achieve the most consistent performance. Otherwise, outputs from the ballistic software would have been far less than ideal, yielding it impossible to get anything close to consistency between shots. Everything else was a matter of adjusting the mechanics of each shot.
“Scott Austin, who is the brains behind the rifle/ammo build and coaching the shooter, had learned much from months of testing based on number crunching with various ballistics programs, and was able to guide Winston in closer and closer to the target.”
Last edited by Texas Dan; 09/23/22 12:40 PM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693841
09/23/22 12:32 PM
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J.G.
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You're out of your depth once again.
I was talking about experimenting, they are experimenting.
Making perfect ammo, shot to shot is easy to do, and happens every day around the world. In fact, if their powder charge varies by .2 gr it isn't going to matter much because of the total volume of powder charge. A whole lot of us keep charges between .00 and .02 gr.
And no, it isn't mechanics of the shots. Experienced shooters all keep extremely still and do not screw up trigger squeeze. And they don't flinch.
There's one main thing causing their misses and that is wind.
Shot Flight time Splash Correction made Shot Flight time, splash somewhere else because the wind was different all those seconds later.
Been there, done that. I didn't even need to see these guys shooting and know that is the fight they were fighting.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693861
09/23/22 12:53 PM
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Texas Dan
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I wouldn’t be surprised if those guys who built the ammo knew exactly what load they were going to construct when Austin reached out to them with the challenge. Then like those who built the rifle, everything else was a matter of staying within almost ridiculous tolerances.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693874
09/23/22 01:07 PM
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Texas Dan
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Don’t confuse my lack of knowledge and credentials as keeping me from recognizing those who carry them from those who don’t.
Let me know JG when someone publishes an article with widespread circulation focusing on your achievements and I’ll be glad to pick up a copy. And no, a hundred or so views on YouTube doesn’t apply.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 09/23/22 01:17 PM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8693883
09/23/22 01:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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J.G.
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Published online long ago.
Your jealousy is showing very clear today.
I help tons of THF members every week. And answer rifle, ammo, scope questions via PMs every day.
You on the other hand get crushed by everyone calling you out for being a moron, troll.
Keep digging that hole, flag trasher.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: redchevy]
#8694241
09/23/22 09:20 PM
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DLALLDER
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Imagine making a doctor complete a surgery with scalpels mounted on a 10 foot pole in a variable wind speed wind tunnel. NOT on me!!!!!
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8694310
09/23/22 10:53 PM
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TurkeyHunter
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I could do that in 5 with my 30-30 if I really wanted to.
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Re: World Record 4.4 Mile Rifle Shot
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8695893
09/26/22 12:27 PM
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blkt2
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I wouldn’t be surprised if those guys who built the ammo knew exactly what load they were going to construct when Austin reached out to them with the challenge. Then like those who built the rifle, everything else was a matter of staying within almost ridiculous tolerances. A mortar is freakishly accurate when it is manned by a good crew and it's just a pipe with a T&E and a heavy base. With experience you can get a sloppy and cheap rifle to shoot very well. I used to love getting old surplus military bolt guns with crap bores shooting like a new Winchester or Remington.
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