I am on a lease in Mills County that is loaded with deer. I see about 90% does/fawns. It is a 5 deer county, I shot 4 doe and 1 buck. Most of our hunters don't fill their tags (by choice) and are mainly looking for a quality buck (good luck). There are deer every where. I see them when I walk to the stand, when I hunt, and when I walk back to the truck. I was informed that the owner will no do MLDP. We are not looking to add any spots. We are not allowed any guests. I am concerned that at some point we will have a massive die off from disease, or starvation. Any thoughts on how to thin these deer?

Yeah, the no guests rule eliminates most of the options. My best advice is to try to educate your other hunters about the benefit of taking does. If they don't want the meat, donating it is always an option.

BTW - You should probably do a couple of spotlight surveys to find out how many deer you actually have. It might not be as many as you think...or it might be more. The local TPWD biologist is very helpful in showing you how to do one.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/landwater/land/habitats/county/?county=Mills

You'll be okay, most likely. I imagine you're not far from us, we're covered up as well. We took 10 does, 1 buck and 3 spikes and may take 1-2 more does this weekend. If the deer get too hungry they'll move (if you aren't HF). The reason you saw them so much this year is the drought-conditions were so hard they had to spend more time eating and in more areas. They were very visible because they had to graze longer to fill up.

See if you can convince your guys to take more does. At one time the Mills County Ministerial Alliance was paying for donated deer to be processed. You might contact First Baptist or Fellowship Baptist in Goldthwaite to see if that is still the case. Wesley Head processing may also know if the costs are being covered. Good luck, stay at it!

As for die off, while the numbers in the 70s were very light, we've owned our place since the 50s and have never seen a deer die-off. More and more Mills county places have quit small-animal ranching, leaving a lot more country for deer to live off.

That’s a very common problem, with that said a die off won’t come until the habitat takes a heavy it. Why God invented nasty droughts

Your best bet is to push to atleast mirror an MLD program, where a non partial third party can advise

Look for new lease members that want to shoot their deer.

We are going to excercise our late doe season rights because we have too many deer as well....and a tad heavy on the does.


I'm feeding a tons ( literally ) of protein and don't want to feed more does than I have to.


Maybe get your lease members to do their doe hunts during late season

Maybe your landowner needs to sit down with the county biologist? Doesn't have to go into MLDP, but once you get a survey and understand a healthy carrying capacity for the ranch, maybe he'll reconsider his thoughts on management.

Get a copy of this book, https://www.drdeer.com/catalog/Prod...ucing_and_Harvesting_White-tailed_Deer/7

Have the LO and all the other hunters read the parts about carrying capacity and Buck/Doe ratios and how those directly effect quality of bucks.

Maybe get some info from the local TPWD Biologist about the MLD Programs and work with the LO.

It would help anyone wanting to advise you if you gave more info on number of acres and number of hunters etc. Your issue is not a new one for sure.

We have about 850 acres, 9 total hunters. Deer season only lease, with the right to maintain stands/feeders in the off-season. No game allowed to be taken, except deer. We have some turkey, but not many. Kids are allowed, and shoot of members tags. No guests. I met one of the adjoining landowners. He has 1640 acres, not leased, and hunted lightly by family. That may contribute to us having so many deer. I did not hear any gunshots from the ranches that border us. I was on this lease five years ago, got off it, and came back this season. I saw plenty of deer, but nothing like this year. The drought and oak wilt really hit us. One of our guys counted 54 deer in a neighbors oat field.

Some here have heard this from me "ad nauseum" but I have managed many ponds over the years - number one issue with not having large bass? Too many mouths to feed for the food that is available - result? stunted bass. The fix? Cull a lot of smaller bass out so that the others can get enough nutrition to grow bigger.

So the same theory works with deer - I get that there are places that neighbors do not join in and that makes it difficult - however IMO in the hill country you cannot shoot enough does - otherwise they will multiple like rabbits and take over your property. I nTexas the only way to legally shoot enough does is to get MLD status - truth is it is an uphill battle

That'd be me and my situation. Pretty sure the neighbors won't bother, one that came over to meet me, and wraps around me on 2 & 1/2 sides, stated as such. But I'm on my first year MLD and I'm trying. 6 more does to go out of a quota of 22. One more "unbranched antler" (from 3) and 2 more (from 5) bucks. We've lost one doe (shot by a guest) and one cull buck, (shot by me ) that both, I'm pretty sure, didn't recover.

good for you for at least trying - I have hunted all over the hill country and I am not sure if the best approach at the end of the day is to just roll with it - it is what it is - as my Dad said many times "Son if you piss into the wind you gonna get wet" - I have no idea in this day and age if the goal is attainable other than HF - and believe me I get why folks HF now days in the hill country -

Think of it this way...if you can kill 22 does per year then in 5 yrs there are 110 does plus all their offspring not feeding on your land. The remaining does can still produce as many or more fawns with the extra food available. Add in the buck numbers you remove annually also over that time and you see where it begins to work. It is not a one year and done quick fix but a long term plan. It takes time but you will see a difference in a few years.....or get frustrated and give up...

Either hunt for a new lease with like minded hunters, or stay with it...

You wil eventually ketch up.

Along these lines , what's the average mortality rate on deer that aren't being shot by hunters ? Just wondered how many die of natural causes or predators.

You aught to consider hosting a youth hunt. I had a neighbor who hosted a youth hunt that took 64 does off his place in year 1. He claims that really fixed his buck doe ratio for the better and allowed him to manage it from there. I believe he said he has 1000 acres out by Enchanted Rock

Agree I’ve seen the same hunting hill country. I’ve heard many times on ranches I was looking at that they don’t allow doe to be taken. They wanted them around to bring in the bucks, was on a couple places that eventually let us take a 2-3 instead of the 1 allowed by lease agreement after we showed them game cam pics or phone pics of the many does crowding the feeders with very few bucks. Unfortunately the place that we were able to work on the numbers sold at year 5 so we never got to take advantage of that work. Best of luck, talk to your lease mates and help them understand importance even though it’ll take a while.

just side note - if you are interested in this stuff then hang with me as I go through this scenario - if not then no worries

some years back I bought a 600 acre ranch near Ft Hood - totally hill country -

we lived there - so my plan was to HF the place, kill all of the native deer, and restock deer. Zero interest in commercially hunting the place. I just wanted to see how big I could grow some deer on the place for family and friends to hunt.

So it took me a year to kill out all of the native deer. One would think it would be easy to kill off deer on a 600 acre HF place - WRONG! They get real smart trust me

Once I did I brought in 3 bred does from 3 different breeders and 3 young bucks from 3 different breeders. I wanted a mixture of northern, southern, etc. I also want different genetics - wide, typical, non typical, etc.

So once that was completed I started calculating the numbers to see how many deer I would need to harvest each year in order to keep the numbers in line - when I did the math I was blown away - (anyone ever heard of the old money scenario? If you take a penny and double it every year what would that penny amount to in 10-20 years? Answer is? A pot load of money - same happens with deer

I will let each of you do the math if you wish but think about this. You start with 3 bucks and 3 bred does - 6 deer to start. Assume each doe throws off either one or two fawns for an average of one and a half fawns each year. Out of those, half are does and half are bucks. So year two your one and a half does (on average) get bred and have the same one and a half fawns. The cycle goes on. Within just a few short years your total of 6 deer you started with turn in to hundreds unless you cull the hell out of them!

Moral of the story? Deer will out produce a property quickly and over run the place if you do not eliminate some of them. Those who think it is less expensive to own a large ranch versus leasing a large ranch? I beg to differ - owning is awesome but it is not cheap if you do it right

In closing - I have absolute total respect for someone like STX who did this for a living - I did not so I always defer to someone like him. My words come from hunting for 60 plus years all over Texas and the world and reading everything I could get my hands on over all those same years - my approach is based on first hand experience which does not make it right - thanks for listening

It sounds more like you have a hunter problem not a deer problem.
850 acres with 9 hunters. If each hunter took his limit that would be 45 deer off 850 acres. A few years of that and your numbers will be looking good.

huntwest, I think you are spot on. I don't know all of the guys, and have only met two of them. Most of this group has been on the lease for at least 10 years, or so. I found out that we have 3 hunters who each harvested two deer. I think there may be some that did not shoot any. The time is past due for a sound management plan.

I see no way to have an effect on deer numbers or health without a high fence or a lot of management minded neighbors.

My situation. I have 133 acres South of Bowie. At one time I had a LOT more. The deer were all healthy. But, I started shooting does, culls, etc. I planted wheat and fertilized. Over the years I saw no effect. Then a 4 year drought came along and we were left with damn few deer or wildlife of any kind. Even rabbits, quail, scorpions, chiggers, snakes, turkeys and ticks died off.

Things are looking better now but I no longer see herds of does. Hogs moved in about 10 or so years ago and are doing well. The hogs keep me and neighbors from planting crops of any kind. I can shoot hogs anytime and any day. I’ll have no effect on them.

The bottom line is if you want to manage wildlife, you better get Mama Nature on board.

Want some of our anthrax soil or anthrax deer bones?

I can probably find you a few 120-130" 3/4 grown anthrax antlers lying around

Did you have any supplemental water or feed besides your winter wheat plot?

I think a big part of that is 133 acres. It doesnt even begin to contain a deers home range.

With the advent of deer feeders I think you would be surprised about some Deers home range. I have deer I see at feeder every trip. Resident does I see in the yard every time I drive up to the house.

I think some deer roam about but others live their lives in just a couple hundred acres. My buddy has 35 acres and watched the same buck Every day in his yard for 6 years before it Disappeared.

Interesting

Redchevy, my point was about the change, not the numbers on just my place. The entire region was affected and has never gone back to the "good old days".

But, I saw more deer, actually herds, on my place than I now see in the region. I know they werent resident on my place but wandered around the area. All the neighbors and the game biologist agree.

Dave, im kind of confused by this. Are you talking about the drought 8 or 10 years ago. I know the drought was worse in some places than others but I dont feel our lease or our area had a die off at all. Im not saying you didnt but even if you did the reduction of mouths on the land should of caused higher reproduction and recruitment and the numbers should of bounced back in pretty quick order. Im no expert but it seems to go against everything I think I know. But I dont know much. I would be curious to know more.

Im in the same boat as freerange. The drought in those times is ancient history in deer years. They should be back in force.

Honestly our deer never need to venture further than a few acres to get what they NEED. There is a free choice protein feeder, water station, and corn feeder plus 80 acres of good natural browse in every 1/4 of our place. We have deer that routinely hit all of the feeders, some that hit just one of them then during the rut will hit several of them and we have deer that come and go every year.

Deer arnt much different than people.

Some will travel the world and not stay long in the same place. Others are content to live their lives in the same area never venturing from what’s familiar

My good bucks appear to be "rolling stones".

The biggest we have taken and the biggest we have seen on our place traveled quite a ways from their normal homes.

We have a couple of our better ones that were the biggest homebodies I have ever seen though.

Neighbor and I each removed a doe this weekend. Saturday afternoon I had 30 different deer in a 50 acre area (12-acre central oat field). 6 bucks, 14 fawns, 10 does. Lots of deer, I saw some of them walk 800+ yards to get to the oat field. Despite recent rains/snow, they're keeping it too short to put sheep on.

edit. sorry guys i just posted on wrong thread or something so I erased.

I have no real idea why they haven’t recovered to pre drought times. I talked to the TPWD biologist not too long ago. He has been there quite awhile but was not there when the “good old days” and the 4 year drought occurred.However, he did talk to the previous guy who confirmed the changes.

The only real change that has occurred regards cattle. Back then, there were a lot of actual ranchers. I was one. That meant a lot of fertilized winter wheat and oats. Now, if I plant wheat the pigs pretty well root it up. So, we don’t have the winter browse that we once had.

Drought plus high deer numbers means the habitat has not recovered.

isn't that contradictory?

Because they are moving so much to find food?

To many deer. Severe drought hits. To many deer eat habitat till it is damaged severely. To many deer die off to a few deer. Does not rain for a while. Habitat does not recover due to long term stress. Habitat now only capable of supporting so many deer. Deer numbers do not recover due to what is now poor habitat.

STx, I know this may be too complex to explain in this context but i wish you could elaborate on how this situation isnt always true across our State since most of the State experienced drought in those years.
Im aware that good deer and land managers can, should and do keep their populations in check with the carrying capacity.
I just believe that the vast majority of our State wide deer habitat is NOT aggressively controlled to match the carrying capacity.
So my question is WHY didnt more areas experience the big habitat destruction/damage that you mentioned? Or did they? The theory of some areas being population dependent versus population independent may come into play but I never have grasped that concept in a real world concept. Our area in NW Tx did fine during the drought without making a major push at killing does. Fawn crops/recruitment cut back but adults and habitat did not seem to be hurt in any major way. I have always thought in our area(and others) that other factors controlled any potential to over populate to some extent.
Bottom line, I guess--why can some areas of State get away with not killing a lot of does and make it through a drought "ok" and others have habitat severely damaged, along with a die off and then a very long recovery(if ever) of the habitat? Anyone else besides STx, of course, is free to comment.

Require members to take 2 does before a buck is taken?

Could it be that you now have too many pigs? Pigs will run deer off.

We had open feeders that fed hogs and deer. The hogs dominated the feeders and the deer sightings went down. I would shoot hogs multiple hunts in a row many times. We penned the two feeders we saw hogs at the most and hog sightings plummeted and deer sightings skyrocketed. About 3-4 years down the road, we rarely see hogs, only 2 were seen the entire season long on our place.

One down side is it seems with the absence of the feral hogs, the javalina have come back in force.

Yep shut down the soup kitchen the freeloaders will stop showing up.