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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Jgraider]
#8105146
12/28/20 02:21 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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Sorry, I pretty much have to disagree with that.
There is not a $500 pair of binoculars made that can touch my 19 year old Swarovski ELs. I’ve had a lot of different outfitters, hunters and spotters verify that over the past 5 years. And that’s just a side-by-side comparison and doesn’t even take into account eye strain over hours of glassing.
And there is a whole lot you can see through a pair of Swarovskis that you would never see through a Tract Toric. A tine in the shadows at 400, counting points at dusk at 100, an elk turn his head at 1000..... the list is endless. There is a reason (almost I guess) every experienced hunter and outfitter will tell you to get the best glass you can afford. Before anything else. Better glass performs better at all ranges, not just long range.
Then we'll just agree to disagree than. I own a couple of Swaros....10x50ELSV and a 10x42 SLC HD, and several others including the Meostar Nikon MHG, and Toric. I've glassed for deer countless times with these and many others that hunters brought into camp over the past 15 years. When I say "there's nothing you will see through a Swaro that you can't see as well through a Toric", of course the Swaro is sharper and a little brighter. The price point will clue you in to that fact. BUT, if you can see it through my Swaros, you CAN see it with the Meostar, GR HD, Toric, etc. I use a spotter to judge game after I've found it with binos. The only spotter made that's better than the Meostar S2 is the new modular Swaro system. As a matter of fact you could use a Swarovision and I'd use the Tract and I'd routinely find deer you'd never see. How the heck do you have a clue what I would see vs. what you would see? Have we met? Geez. Back to the subject: What do you think “sharper” and “brighter” does? It lets you see more and better, that’s what it does. Yes, everyone who has ever bought ELs, NLs, and/or a Swaro single ocular spotter has wasted their money when they could have done just as well for half the price with Japanese Tract Torics and Czech Meoptas.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105172
12/28/20 02:43 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,600
BOBO the Clown
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
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I wonder why Swaro developed the NL Pures.
** on side note the most impressive binos I've ever looked through where the 12x NL PURE. If they had a range finder they might be the perfect bino.
One can only dream.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105177
12/28/20 02:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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I have the 12x NL Pures. They developed them because they are, at present, the best binoculars on the market.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#8105181
12/28/20 02:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,499
flintknapper
THF Trophy Hunter
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Sorry, I pretty much have to disagree with that.
There is not a $500 pair of binoculars made that can touch my 19 year old Swarovski ELs. I’ve had a lot of different outfitters, hunters and spotters verify that over the past 5 years. And that’s just a side-by-side comparison and doesn’t even take into account eye strain over hours of glassing.
And there is a whole lot you can see through a pair of Swarovskis that you would never see through a Tract Toric. A tine in the shadows at 400, counting points at dusk at 100, an elk turn his head at 1000..... the list is endless. There is a reason (almost I guess) every experienced hunter and outfitter will tell you to get the best glass you can afford. Before anything else. Better glass performs better at all ranges, not just long range.
Then we'll just agree to disagree than. I own a couple of Swaros....10x50ELSV and a 10x42 SLC HD, and several others including the Meostar Nikon MHG, and Toric. I've glassed for deer countless times with these and many others that hunters brought into camp over the past 15 years. When I say "there's nothing you will see through a Swaro that you can't see as well through a Toric", of course the Swaro is sharper and a little brighter. The price point will clue you in to that fact. BUT, if you can see it through my Swaros, you CAN see it with the Meostar, GR HD, Toric, etc. I use a spotter to judge game after I've found it with binos. The only spotter made that's better than the Meostar S2 is the new modular Swaro system. As a matter of fact you could use a Swarovision and I'd use the Tract and I'd routinely find deer you'd never see. How the heck do you have a clue what I would see vs. what you would see? Have we met? Geez. Back to the subject: What do you think “sharper” and “brighter” does? It lets you see more and better, that’s what it does. Yes, everyone who has ever bought ELs, NLs, and/or a Swaro single ocular spotter has wasted their money when they could have done just as well for half the price with Japanese Tract Torics. I believe JG still has a valid argument when we consider that 'sharper' (in high end BINS) is usually in reference to the edges and other minute differences that the uninitiated would never notice or appreciate anyway. Though technically you are correct. 'Brighter'.....well that IS important BUT how much are we really talking? Is there an appreciable and demonstrable advantage (under most conditions) between glass with a 93% Transmission Rate vs. 95-96% ? And what about the person's eyesight looking through them? Can they even utilize the exit pupil? I am older and my eyesight is somewhat diminished. At best....my pupils fully dilated are probably 4.5 to-5.0 mm so any exit pupil larger than that....I can't realize except to have a larger 'window' to look through. Conversely, my 34 yr. old Daughter with perfect vision could look through the same pair of BINS and declare them very bright, where I might argue that (if I didn't understand why). So at least part of these 'discussions' will always be subjective, one person's experience different from another's. Now I would not argue what I think your point is: That the best glass offers the most advantage to ANY user. But in the last 15-20 years there have been advances in technology and manufacturing processes that 'narrows' the gap between yesteryear's high end glass and mid to upper tier offerings today.
Last edited by flintknapper; 12/28/20 02:56 AM.
Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105186
12/28/20 02:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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Certainly the gap has narrowed between many models. (The NLs just redefined that gap though.) But what JG is saying is that the gap makes no practical difference anymore. That is simply not true.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105215
12/28/20 03:30 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,674
DStroud
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
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I agree with BoBo and I sold my Swaro SLC’s last year and went to Maven for that reason. Bought them in 1991 and sold them for 50.00 more than what I paid back then so not a bad investment IMO.
Actually don’t use the Mavens much as I tend to use the lesser quality Sig 3000 because of the RF & blue tooth capabilities built in. They are certainly good enough to glass all day with no eye strain as I have used them quite extensively for two years. I have spent over 3 weeks behind them on two Elk hunts and a week long deer hunt this year and never missed my Swaro’s.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105275
12/28/20 04:24 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,283
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 6,283 |
Like I said NP, I'm not guessing. Seen it many many many times. I also.had many hunters show up with the latest and greatest gear thinking it made them better hunters. Often times they were wrong like you.. Believe what you want though. Makes no difference to me.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Jgraider]
#8105456
12/28/20 02:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,915
J.G.
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Jgraider, I'm betting you are looking through binoculars 52 weeks a year, given where you live.
Correct?
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105595
12/28/20 03:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 35,564
Buzzsaw
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I went with the SIG 10X42 Rangefinding binos. I give them a solid "B" grade.
I found them sub par for "trophy" hunting, trying to tell age, tine count at 200 yards . I can tell its a Great buck but If $5000 was the difference in 1" of antler, I wouldn't trust them
Probably my screwed up eye's, I should get a dog and a white cane.
The range finding feature is SOLID. I just wanted both in one and couldn't afford the Orange Swaro's.
Its all about the budget. And if you use them more than half dozen times a year.
SPACE FOR RENT
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: J.G.]
#8105714
12/28/20 05:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,283
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 6,283 |
Jgraider, I'm betting you are looking through binoculars 52 weeks a year, given where you live.
Correct? I will miss 2 -3 weeks but thats a out it. You're a rifle/ballistics looney and I'm more of an optics looney I guess.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Buzzsaw]
#8105729
12/28/20 05:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,995
redchevy
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I went with the SIG 10X42 Rangefinding binos. I give them a solid "B" grade.
I found them sub par for "trophy" hunting, trying to tell age, tine count at 200 yards . I can tell its a Great buck but If $5000 was the difference in 1" of antler, I wouldn't trust them
Probably my screwed up eye's, I should get a dog and a white cane.
The range finding feature is SOLID. I just wanted both in one and couldn't afford the Orange Swaro's.
Its all about the budget. And if you use them more than half dozen times a year.
If the difference of an inch was $5000, I wouldn't trust much less than an official score after the drying period.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Jgraider]
#8105736
12/28/20 05:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,915
J.G.
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Jgraider, I'm betting you are looking through binoculars 52 weeks a year, given where you live.
Correct? I will miss 2 -3 weeks but thats a out it. You're a rifle/ballistics looney and I'm more of an optics looney I guess. I was just asking, because it makes sense to listen to someone that uses this stuff ALL the time. Kind of like some guys that rifle shoot ALL the time.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Buzzsaw]
#8105801
12/28/20 06:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,600
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,600 |
I went with the SIG 10X42 Rangefinding binos. I give them a solid "B" grade.
I found them sub par for "trophy" hunting, trying to tell age, tine count at 200 yards . I can tell its a Great buck but If $5000 was the difference in 1" of antler, I wouldn't trust them
Probably my screwed up eye's, I should get a dog and a white cane.
The range finding feature is SOLID. I just wanted both in one and couldn't afford the Orange Swaro's.
Its all about the budget. And if you use them more than half dozen times a year.
The Swaro EL range arent the same as the Swaro EL binos. You didn’t mess up. It’s a trade off
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105820
12/28/20 06:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,409
Pittstate
THF Trophy Hunter
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I have the Leupold BX-3 Pro Guide HD for deer hunting and they have the best glass at seeing game in very low situations. I can count points on bucks up to 60 minutes after sunset on most days. They are not the best for eye strain after viewing for hours, but still better than 95% of other binocs. We have Swarvo, Lieca and Zeiss and the BX3 HD's see far better in low light. Viper are not even a close comparison. I will be buying the BX4 the next time.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105829
12/28/20 06:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,283
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
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Couldn't agree more FJG. I have no bias. I own and use what works, at least for me. I'm also here to learn about subjects Im less experienced on.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Jgraider]
#8105852
12/28/20 07:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,338
scottfromdallas
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 5,338 |
Couldn't agree more FJG. I have no bias. I own and use what works, at least for me. I'm also here to learn about subjects Im less experienced on. You do seem to be obsessed which is why I respect your opinion. Doing research, I even see you on the bird watching forums discussing optics. Any thoughts on the Kowa BD2? They seem to get favorable reviews.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8105908
12/28/20 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,283
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 6,283 |
Sorry but no Kowa binoc experience. I did own a Kowa 884 spotter though .
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Jgraider]
#8106392
12/29/20 04:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,674
DStroud
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
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Sorry but no Kowa binoc experience. I did own a Kowa 884 spotter though . My Kowa 884 will be here tomorrow. I have been wanting one for a couple years after playing with it versus the Swaro’s at our quarterly matches. My Vortex with the 30x mil reticle was pretty good but the Kowa has the wow to my eyes.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8106555
12/29/20 01:28 PM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,443
Smokey Bear
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,443 |
Resolution of detail, brightness, and ergonomics all have to work together to make great binocs. I have been enjoying following along on this thread. One aspect that has been overlooked in this thread is individual eyesight. When you get to upper echelon glass, what one set of eyeballs see the best through will differ. As one ages, what works best will also change. Pissing contests over the best glass is common among the group I hunt with. A consensus is never reached because what we see is individual. Back to the OP: looking through the binocs in your price range in low light before buying will considerably up your odds of purchasing a set you are satisfied with. Best of luck finding a pair that works better for you.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Jgraider]
#8107113
12/29/20 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,338
scottfromdallas
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 5,338 |
Sorry but no Kowa binoc experience. I did own a Kowa 884 spotter though . F it. I'm just going to order some 8x42 Torics based on your recommendation and the research I've done. At least they are made in Japan. Seems like everyone has moved their mid range binos to China the last 5 years.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#8107351
12/30/20 12:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,283
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 6,283 |
Sorry but no Kowa binoc experience. I did own a Kowa 884 spotter though . F it. I'm just going to order some 8x42 Torics based on your recommendation and the research I've done. At least they are made in Japan. Seems like everyone has moved their mid range binos to China the last 5 years. I guarantee you won't regret it. If for some reason you do let me know. Jon at Tract is fantastic to deal with as well. I took them to Namibia one year and they were far superior to the PH's older 8x30 SLC's with the goofy focuser on the wrong end. Everyone in camp agreed, and they also all agreed that the Toric is every bit as good as the Conquest HD, easily.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: Sewer rat]
#8107603
12/30/20 03:30 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,234
gusick
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,234 |
Larger objectives usually make them seem brighter, regardless of their magnification or price. When all else us equal, lower magnification is brighter too.
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: 4Weight]
#8108014
12/30/20 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 7,759 |
Zeiss. At low light, you get what you pay for.
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: snake oil]
#8108070
12/30/20 04:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,338
scottfromdallas
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,338 |
Zeiss. At low light, you get what you pay for. Any Zeiss is better than anything else?
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Re: Binocular recommendation
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#8108611
12/30/20 11:36 PM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,443
Smokey Bear
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,443 |
Zeiss. At low light, you get what you pay for. Any Zeiss is better than anything else? Not my post but no, not better than anything else. To some eyes however, the Zeiss Victory’s are. As are the Leica noctavid’s and Swarovski’s. If you want to save a dollar there are offerings like the Toric that get pretty close. For my money, if I needed a new pair today, I think the best value for something really good is Leica Trinovid.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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