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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: SDTurner]
#7889300
07/03/20 02:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
Bill,
What load are you using to get 2735 out of the 110SP?
Thanks All the lot #4 of CFEBLK I can stuff in the case and still seat the bullet to proper OAL. You can't get enough powder in the case to even reach 55k psi with this bullet. SOCOM is a more practical choice, but you can't reach 2735fps at a safe pressure, more like 2650fps out of a 16". The current lot #5 that's available is too bulky to reach top velocity with the 110gr Thank you - I've got a couple of pounds of lot #1 left. Do you know how that compared in your testing? Sorry I haven't used any lot #1, only #2, #3 and #4 which are all very similar
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: Wilson Combat]
#7889450
07/03/20 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 512
DavidK
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 512 |
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the new Hornady 6mm ARC. From what I've read, it was designed to maximize the potential of the AR-15 platform. But I don't really see this as competition with the .300 HAM'R, but more of an optimized long range focused cousin. In essence both of these new calibers focused on squeezing more out of an AR-15. But whereas the 300 HAM'R has a larger and heavier bullet for increased penetration potential on tough game over shorter distances, the 6mm ARC, in contrast, optimizes longer range with a lighter bullet and different cartridge geometry.
I'm no ballistics expert, but I would love to hear from those who are about the trade offs. Of course, Bill, the HAM'R is your baby, but I see that Wilson Combat will also be producing 6 mm ARC components/rifles. So you would be the most versed as to how these two cartridges compare.
I love my two 300 HAM'Rs, but I'm wondering if I need to make space for a 6mm ARC in the collection. I've spent most of a day for the past 4 days on the range doing 6mm ARC testing and load development. So far my observations are that this cartridge isn't anything special (basically a 6mm BR which has been around for a long time) and I was actually disappointed in how little velocity I was able to get out of the MAXIMUM charge weight loads Hornady provided me. The top velocity load with TAC pushed a 103gr ELD-X to 2521fps with so so accuracy, my most accurate load (consistent sub .8") with Benchmark only gives 2507fps. Considering I can get 2735fps from a 16" bbl (and stay under 57k psi) out of the Hornady 110gr SP in the HAM'R this didn't excite me much. However it made me want to do a head to head trajectory comparison, which ended up showing that out to any range where either cartridge still has much power their isn't much difference at all in how flat they shoot. On the positive the test rifle ran 100% with all loads tested, has very mild recoil and is pretty quiet with a Quell suppressor. It just doesn't fit any need I personally have......kinda like the .224 Valkyrie a nice range toy. What length barrel were you using Bill?
Wilson Combat Pro Staff
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: DavidK]
#7889493
07/03/20 06:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the new Hornady 6mm ARC. From what I've read, it was designed to maximize the potential of the AR-15 platform. But I don't really see this as competition with the .300 HAM'R, but more of an optimized long range focused cousin. In essence both of these new calibers focused on squeezing more out of an AR-15. But whereas the 300 HAM'R has a larger and heavier bullet for increased penetration potential on tough game over shorter distances, the 6mm ARC, in contrast, optimizes longer range with a lighter bullet and different cartridge geometry.
I'm no ballistics expert, but I would love to hear from those who are about the trade offs. Of course, Bill, the HAM'R is your baby, but I see that Wilson Combat will also be producing 6 mm ARC components/rifles. So you would be the most versed as to how these two cartridges compare.
I love my two 300 HAM'Rs, but I'm wondering if I need to make space for a 6mm ARC in the collection. I've spent most of a day for the past 4 days on the range doing 6mm ARC testing and load development. So far my observations are that this cartridge isn't anything special (basically a 6mm BR which has been around for a long time) and I was actually disappointed in how little velocity I was able to get out of the MAXIMUM charge weight loads Hornady provided me. The top velocity load with TAC pushed a 103gr ELD-X to 2521fps with so so accuracy, my most accurate load (consistent sub .8") with Benchmark only gives 2507fps. Considering I can get 2735fps from a 16" bbl (and stay under 57k psi) out of the Hornady 110gr SP in the HAM'R this didn't excite me much. However it made me want to do a head to head trajectory comparison, which ended up showing that out to any range where either cartridge still has much power their isn't much difference at all in how flat they shoot. On the positive the test rifle ran 100% with all loads tested, has very mild recoil and is pretty quiet with a Quell suppressor. It just doesn't fit any need I personally have......kinda like the .224 Valkyrie a nice range toy. What length barrel were you using Bill? 16.2"
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7889504
07/03/20 06:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 512
DavidK
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 512 |
Yeah I think optimally it needs a longer barrel and slower powder. Hornady factory 103's are rated at 2800 fps from a 24" barrel.
Wilson Combat Pro Staff
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: DavidK]
#7889644
07/03/20 09:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7889649
07/03/20 09:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 512
DavidK
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 512 |
Wilson Combat Pro Staff
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: ShadowFast1]
#7890577
07/04/20 10:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 111
SwatDude1
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 111 |
Are most of you using H1 buffers with 16" and 18" barrels? I never run anything except at standard weight buffer in any of my guns. Some personal testing with the 8-inch pistol using Wilson Combat Flat Wire Extra Power Spring and H1 buffer: holding it one-handed loosely the bolt will lock back on an empty mag all day long with 130 HHC. Same loose one hand hold with 150 gr HB-bolt will not lock on empty mag but rounds will feed. Same loose one hand hold with 150 gr SST-bolt will not lock on empty mag but rounds will feed. Everything same as above with carbine buffer in lieu of H1: no difference in mag lock results above. With the pistol gas I prefer a heavier buffer to save my extractors. Next time I'm at the range I'll see if an H2 has any negative effects on full bolt travel. I am chomping at the bit for the 135 HAM'R Bonded round and think this will be my single solution for this caliber (although my experience has been there is very little POI change between the 130 gr and 150 gr bullets within 100 yards, a testament to the accuracy of the caliber). I've tired of my schizophrenic gun collection and ammunition selection and am now paring down to just a few favorite calibers with one or two "go to" rounds. For 556, I use XM193 exclusively for range and stockpile ammo, and Black Hills 77 TMK's for "carry" ammo, although those AR's have been mostly collecting dust since HAM'R came along. Since I don't reload, I'm hoping some cheaper practice ammo will become available as the popularity of this caliber sky-rockets. I really think the Army should abandoned their new plans for a proprietary 6.8 and just swap all their M-4's to HAM'R. This is a selfish wish since I would love a milspec HAM'R round with crimped and sealed primers and sealed case mouths (Bill is already using cannelures). I experienced first hand what a blown primer can do in the FBI HRT Bus Assault school when it lodged between the front of the lower receiver and hammer. AR dead in the water with no available remedial action to correct except transitioning to handgun. Regarding the 11.3" barrel, the gas port seems a bit undersized. I'm running that gun with a carbine buffer and standard power flat wire spring. Same results above with one hand loose hold. I should add performing the same test above with a loosely shouldered 8 and 11.3 inch, results in full bolt travel and empty mag lock with 125 TNT, 130 HHC, 150 HB and 150 SST's. Just depends on how OCD you want to be with full feeding reliability for worst case scenario vs. a slightly softer recoiling rifle. It seems counter-intuitive that the heavier bullets would have less bolt thrust but that is exactly what my testing proves out. I'm interested in what you've found when it comes to testing buffer weights and springs and looking forward to hearing your H2 buffer weight results. I'll be ordering an 11.3" Ham'r barrel as soon as they come back in stock. I've found the same results with 150 grain loads in an 18" gun. When we adjusted the gas block to run perfectly with 130 grain loads, 150 grain loads wouldn't lock the bolt back. So we opened the adjustment screw until they would. I assume it's from the decrease in gas volume from the smaller charge of powder. I have no doubt the 150's would run with no problem with a standard buffer and a non-adjustable gas block. Finally tested the H2 buffer in the 8-inch and no difference in performance above. I also didn't notice any difference in recoil impulse. Still think the delay is beneficial for reduced wear on the bolt. My experience has been the 8-inch is healthily gassed and the 11-inch somewhat under gassed.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: SwatDude1]
#7890799
07/05/20 12:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
Your observations are all correct, the 125gr-135gr loads cycle the guns more positive than the 110gr or 150gr loads. Our 110gr loads are loaded with SOCOM due to the smaller powder charge required and the 150gr loads as commented have a smaller powder charge than the 125gr-135gr loads. We test for bolt stop operation with both the 110gr and 150gr loads for this reason. We've found that some BCGs aren't getting full gas flow and often a BCG change will make a non functioning gun function fine leading us to believe this is the largest variable in the system.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: Wilson Combat]
#7890956
07/05/20 04:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 111
SwatDude1
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 111 |
Your observations are all correct, the 125gr-135gr loads cycle the guns more positive than the 110gr or 150gr loads. Our 110gr loads are loaded with SOCOM due to the smaller powder charge required and the 150gr loads as commented have a smaller powder charge than the 125gr-135gr loads. We test for bolt stop operation with both the 110gr and 150gr loads for this reason. We've found that some BCGs aren't getting full gas flow and often a BCG change will make a non functioning gun function fine leading us to believe this is the largest variable in the system. Bill, worn or out of spec gas rings are the first things I check on under-gassed AR's. I had bought a JP Enhanced bolt and was having cycling issues. While they claim their one-piece gas ring functions great, that was not my experience. They claim that even though their BCG with single-piece ring won't pass the stand-on-end test, it functions perfectly with lower wear. I wound up swapping their ring out with standard Colt gas rings and the short stroking issue disappeared.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: SwatDude1]
#7891628
07/06/20 12:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
Your observations are all correct, the 125gr-135gr loads cycle the guns more positive than the 110gr or 150gr loads. Our 110gr loads are loaded with SOCOM due to the smaller powder charge required and the 150gr loads as commented have a smaller powder charge than the 125gr-135gr loads. We test for bolt stop operation with both the 110gr and 150gr loads for this reason. We've found that some BCGs aren't getting full gas flow and often a BCG change will make a non functioning gun function fine leading us to believe this is the largest variable in the system. Bill, worn or out of spec gas rings are the first things I check on under-gassed AR's. I had bought a JP Enhanced bolt and was having cycling issues. While they claim their one-piece gas ring functions great, that was not my experience. They claim that even though their BCG with single-piece ring won't pass the stand-on-end test, it functions perfectly with lower wear. I wound up swapping their ring out with standard Colt gas rings and the short stroking issue disappeared. Swat We use one piece rings exclusively and have had very good success with them, but the ones we use and the carrier ID dimension we hold results in them being pretty tight. They easily pass the stand-on-end test after thousands of rounds. We've seen the lack of gas issue more in the carrier/key alignment area.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: Wilson Combat]
#7893588
07/07/20 11:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 23
almc
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 23 |
Hi fellows. I need a little information on the 135 HAM'R bonded. I need the actual bullet length and the BC if possible so a guy can run me some QuickLoad calculations. Appreciate the information!
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: almc]
#7894509
07/08/20 06:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
Hi fellows. I need a little information on the 135 HAM'R bonded. I need the actual bullet length and the BC if possible so a guy can run me some QuickLoad calculations. Appreciate the information! BC is .295 and length is .970"
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7894539
07/08/20 06:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 23
almc
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 23 |
Thank you very much Bill!!
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7900216
07/14/20 02:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
POKERFACE
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 6 |
Mr Wilson - Looking for velocity on factory ammo from 20 inch barrel. Have not been able to find any up to date info on this. Could you please assist? I plan on building a 300 HAM'R in the near future but do not reload and am wanting to take every advantage on this new round. Will be hunting deer mostly.
Thanks , Joe
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: POKERFACE]
#7900356
07/14/20 04:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
Mr Wilson - Looking for velocity on factory ammo from 20 inch barrel. Have not been able to find any up to date info on this. Could you please assist? I plan on building a 300 HAM'R in the near future but do not reload and am wanting to take every advantage on this new round. Will be hunting deer mostly.
Thanks , Joe Joe, with barrels from 16-20 inch you can pretty much figure on 12fps per inch, the velocity data for our factory ammo is from a 18" barrel so just add 24fps for a 20".
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: Wilson Combat]
#7900490
07/14/20 06:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
POKERFACE
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 6 |
Thank you very much for the info.
Joe
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: POKERFACE]
#7901276
07/15/20 01:17 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 291
Graycard
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 291 |
Joe, for what it is worth, My rifles are 16", 18" and 20" and I've tested them all. I have noticed a little more increase when going from 16" to 18" than I did going from 18" to 20". On average, Mr. Wilson's comment would be about right. For myself, I've found the 18" guns to be a great compromise between velocity and handling.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7903039
07/16/20 07:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
POKERFACE
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 6 |
Thanks for the info Graycard. Even though most shots at game are 100yrds or less , always looking for the most velocity/range.
Joe
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7904867
07/18/20 06:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 284
MC68
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 284 |
150gr SST!
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: MC68]
#7905585
07/19/20 05:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230
Wilson Combat
Boar Meister
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Boar Meister
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,230 |
150gr SST! MC you seem to like those spotted hogs, nice one congrads
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7906215
07/20/20 02:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 284
MC68
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 284 |
We sure have had a lot of them this year, not sure why. I tend to put them on the top of the list when I get them on camera.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7906429
07/20/20 11:55 AM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 284
MC68
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 284 |
Just found a couple new targets. The only problem is I won’t be able to hunt for the next two weeks.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7906676
07/20/20 03:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 119
SDTurner
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 119 |
I have an experience/opinion question for you guys.
In bullet testing I have done with bonded bullets in water, gel, and game, I have found that for a given caliber, different weight bullets tend to expand to about the same diameter and just continue to peel back further with higher velocity or more weight.
We also have learned that there is a difference in the destruction of tissue in light skinned game with lower vs higher velocities and many “experts” feel that the threshold is somewhere around 2100-2300fps.
So my question is this - If we assume we have a 123gr bullet and a 150gr bullet out of a 300 ham’r both with a bonded construction that both expand to somewhere around .70 and both have sufficient penetration on light skinned game ( knowing that there will probably be a penetration advantage with the heavier bullet if that is beneficial in the particular scenario ), with the 123gr impacting at 2300 and the 150gr impacting at 2000. We will assume a broadside shot on deer with a complete pass through with both bullets - would there not be a slight advantage to the lighter bullet traveling faster that would potentially disrupt more tissue due to the additional velocity?
Obviously, we could create scenarios where the heavier bullet with more penetration would be beneficial, but assuming adequate penetration for both, do you feel the extra velocity with the lighter weight bullet would have a greater impact on the animal?
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: dlrz71]
#7906902
07/20/20 05:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 42
MrRooster
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 42 |
With your described scenario, yes there would be a slight advantage... all beit an extreme example, I’ve seen deer shot with 7mm mags that either stood there when shot (no initial reaction) or took off running with a blood trail, never to be seen again vs. deer that have been shot with a Ruger .44 carbine that dropped on the spot or ran less than 50 yds. When you compare the rounds, there is no comparison the 7mm mag is obviously superior but when used at similar distance (100 yds) they are in reality alot more equal in that scenario than you’d think. Conclusion.. big, slow bullet beats light fast bullet. There’s some things that are near impossible to calculate because of thousands of variables that are never equal. Your scenario seems to be one of those things.
I do appreciate the question because I’m wrestling with the same thing myself with this caliber.
Last edited by MrRooster; 07/20/20 05:57 PM.
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Re: WILSON COMBAT 300 HAM'R
[Re: MrRooster]
#7906920
07/20/20 06:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 119
SDTurner
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 119 |
With your described scenario, yes there would be a slight advantage... all beit an extreme example, I’ve seen deer shot with 7mm mags that either stood there when shot (no initial reaction) or took off running with a blood trail, never to be seen again vs. deer that have been shot with a Ruger .44 carbine that dropped on the spot or ran less than 50 yds. When you compare the rounds, there is no comparison the 7mm mag is obviously superior but when used at similar distance (100 yds) they are in reality alot more equal in that scenario than you’d think. Conclusion.. big, slow bullet beats light fast bullet. There’s some things that are near impossible to calculate because of thousands of variables that are never equal. Your scenario seems to be one of those things.
I do appreciate the question because I’m wrestling with the same thing myself with this caliber. I hope to use a couple of different loads on deer this year to test, but it will obviously be a small sample size no matter how many I get. The question of big and slow vs small and fast is a little different here given the same caliber and approximately the same bullet expansion.
Last edited by SDTurner; 07/20/20 06:06 PM.
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