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Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases #7811809 04/19/20 09:10 PM
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Anyone ever use max 44 spl data for 44 mag powder puff loads?
I just recently got a 2 5/8 barreled 629 with a short 2 finger grip and was thinking I might try and work up a bullseye, or unique, maybe tight group load with a 240 jhp using 44 spl data so I don’t break my freaking wrist lol

I have lots of mag brass but no special brass, and I have some hot loaded stuff for a 7” barreled redhawk..

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812035 04/19/20 11:39 PM
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You can do that no problem with those powders listed. I generally load a 240 at about 1000-1100FPS though, and in a gun like your redhawk they will be soft shooting and will still have over 500-600 foot pounds of energy.

The 44 mag is very versatile and fun.

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812571 04/20/20 01:58 PM
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makes the maggie fun to shoot


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812646 04/20/20 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tabjlr
Anyone ever use max 44 spl data for 44 mag powder puff loads?


No, you're not supposed to. If you are referring to using 44 Special data in 44 Mag cases, that's not a good idea. The 44 Mag has about 13% more room inside the case than a 44 Special does. If you are using minimum charge loads with 44 Special data, but loading that in a 44 Mag, you can have dangerously low pressures. You have to increase those charges some since you are firing them in a 44 Mag case. I would not recommend using 44 Special data and loading it in a 44 Mag.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812727 04/20/20 04:21 PM
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Fully agree with Chad.

For 44 spcl type loads I use Berry's or Rainer plated bullets, and Lead SWC bullets and Hodgdon Universal or Clays powder. With Clays 5 grains puts you right in the 44spcl range. Go with published data.

You can use Universal and get almost there with the 240 jacketed bullets, still subsonic with starting load and safe.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: ChadTRG42] #7812756 04/20/20 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
Originally Posted by tabjlr
Anyone ever use max 44 spl data for 44 mag powder puff loads?


No, you're not supposed to. If you are referring to using 44 Special data in 44 Mag cases, that's not a good idea. The 44 Mag has about 13% more room inside the case than a 44 Special does. If you are using minimum charge loads with 44 Special data, but loading that in a 44 Mag, you can have dangerously low pressures. You have to increase those charges some since you are firing them in a 44 Mag case. I would not recommend using 44 Special data and loading it in a 44 Mag.


That was exactly what I was meaning, was going to load some with unique at max 44 special load data in a 44 mag case, which is several grains lower than the bottom of 44 mag data using a 240jhp. Since I posted this I did read some forums that folks used 44spl data + 10% increase using fast powders like unique, bullseye, titegroup with success. I would never try and down load 2400 or H110.. as your looking for a KABOOM in a big way.

I was thinking this may be better reserved for some hard cast or the plated soft bullets.

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812773 04/20/20 04:58 PM
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You shouldn’t have any problem doing that.

On the other hand, published data on the hodgdon site shows 5.0-6.6 grains of titegroup with a 200 grain lead. Velocity listed is 878 to 1061 FPS. That’s pretty powder puff.

The same bullet/powder in the special is 4.5 to 5.4 grains; 846 to 973fps.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812793 04/20/20 05:15 PM
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Just stay up at the max end of the 44 Spc data with those powders and you should be ok. Just verify the data, if you can.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812795 04/20/20 05:16 PM
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With the powders you listed, i am not sure how you would have dangerously low pressures. Worst that will happen is a stuck bullet, which could be dangerous if you are a moron, but I assume that you are not. I have loaded lighter than listed loads in rifles and pistols with titegroup and unique and still have all my fingers, toes, and guns. Experimentation is one of the best parts of reloading. Be sensible and all will be fine.


Have a good one

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812809 04/20/20 05:32 PM
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There's also something called flash over, that causes over pressure. And with the recoil pushing all the powder forward, this can also cause an issue in a pistol. There is a reason why the manuals list a min and a max. Some powders can handle reduced loads (going below minimum listed powder charges) and others can not. Big magnum rounds typically do not like to be reduced. But to each his own.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812812 04/20/20 05:34 PM
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So I loaded the following:
9 grains of titegroup, data was off Hodgdon website, bottom end of data for 240 jhp shows velocity of 1292 in a 7” barrel
I think this is going to be a handful.. I was looking for a low flash load for this 2 5/8” barreled fire breathing monster..

8 grains of unique with a 240jhp, this is something made up from 3 different manuals looking at top end 44 spl data and low end 44 mag data..

I also loaded from 44 mag data 17.5 gr of 2400 which is the starting of 44 mag data.. should be around 950-1000 FPS.

Forgot to mention I used cci 300 primers for all 3.

I am not sure when I’ll go try them out but I don’t think I’ll have any issues

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Last edited by tabjlr; 04/20/20 05:43 PM.
Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: ChadTRG42] #7812831 04/20/20 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadTRG42
There's also something called flash over, that causes over pressure. And with the recoil pushing all the powder forward, this can also cause an issue in a pistol. There is a reason why the manuals list a min and a max. Some powders can handle reduced loads (going below minimum listed powder charges) and others can not. Big magnum rounds typically do not like to be reduced. But to each his own.


I witnessed what I believe was a flashover event at a public range, the guy was talking about how he down loaded h110 and was shooting one of those uberti cowboy action gun, needless to say the top separated from about the mid line of the cylinder and it ignited the powder in the other two cases and burned the guy pretty badly, I don’t believe he was bleeding at the time, but he definitely smelled as if he filled his drawers with poo..

I left shortly after that happened, and didn’t go back to that range for several years..

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: RJH1] #7812837 04/20/20 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RJH1
With the powders you listed, i am not sure how you would have dangerously low pressures. Worst that will happen is a stuck bullet, which could be dangerous if you are a moron, but I assume that you are not. I have loaded lighter than listed loads in rifles and pistols with titegroup and unique and still have all my fingers, toes, and guns. Experimentation is one of the best parts of reloading. Be sensible and all will be fine.


Have a good one


“Be sensible “. Best advice when hand loading right there!

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7812861 04/20/20 05:58 PM
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Also take a peek at titegroup loads for a 45 Colt, not the Ruger loads just standard. With a 250 grain xtp bullet they're down around 7 or so grains. The 45 Colt case has considerably more capacity than the 44 Mag. I'm not saying that that's an exact load to use , but I am saying it's a way to extrapolate and make decisions using the information available. If 7 is grains of titegroup gets the 250 grain flying out of the Colt okay , I'm thinking it's going to be fine with the 44 mag as well. Anyway just some food for thought and a way to look at stuff in reloading manuals to find out things that are not in reloading manuals but you still have to be sensible :-)


Have a good one

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7813124 04/20/20 09:46 PM
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Spend a little time here and read the stories that are posted about detonation and also danger of lodged bullet. Stick with approved min / max loads for 44 Mag
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Quote
Danger! Light loads in big cases can blow up.

http://reloadammo.com/liteload.htm


Quote
Or here
Is Detonation Real?
There has been a lot of ink spilled about the phenomena called detonation. As I shoot I lot of reduced loads with and without a filler it has long been an interest/concern of mine. From all the info I've been able to gather over the decades the description Howlin' gave is the one most agree on. However, if pushed a little no one I've spoken with or written to has confirmed that 100%. I don't know if that matters because 100% of those I've communicated with and every experienced handloader I know agrees that with very light loads of fast burning powders there is something peculiar that goes on, sometimes with devastating results. As Pawpaw mentioned H-110 and 296 seem to be the greatest offenders if charges are reduced below recommended levels. Other faster burning powders have also been known to create the situation.

I have never, personally had any problems with any reduced load I've used nor have I ever seen an example of what is called detonation other than in pictures. The method of my personal reduced loads are well documented by proof houses and highly experienced handloaders and I don't vary from the formula. However, with certain powders there is no question that occasionally "something peculiar" happens.

As others have mentioned if a loader stays within the guidelines of published data there shouldn't be any problems. For those old or seldom seen cartridges there is powders available to day that pretty much eliminate any guesswork in building a suitable load. Trail Boss was mentioned by db and AA5744 is another.

Good thread, interesting topic.

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/is-detonation-real.174838/


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7813398 04/21/20 01:19 AM
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Well my 8 grain unique loads seemed to hammer my hand just as bad as the low end mag loads..
I’m gonna stick to the magnum data, and just load and shot that this gun isn’t something that I will shoot often or a lot of at a time. I’ll take it and shoot a cylinder or two just to stay proficient.

I think I’ll be better served by getting a nice comfy set of grips.

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7814375 04/21/20 09:41 PM
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Little physics here: Recoil is proportional to velocity squared times bullet mass squared. I am neglecting the powder weight in the mass squared since its not a major factor when comparing 2 loads where the powder only changes by 2-3 grains. Don't get confused with energy or momentum, they are different formulas. ( As a side note, if you are a 45 shooter, PF or power factor is really momentum NOT energy or power and those 9mm major loads are way more powerful ( energy wise) than those 45 major loads. They would also buck more if it were not for the compensators working a whole lot better with the higher speed gasses escaping from the muzzle. Those guys rigged the rules to guarantee 45s were the gun of choice for many years )

If you want powder puff loads, drop to the 180 Gr Rem JHP or to something like the cast 165 grain LSWC. Run at the same speeds they will have noticeably less recoil. Don't run the cast bullets too fast or the jacketed bullets too slow.

I was asked by a friend to load down some 44 mag shells for him. I grabbed some of the cast bullets and some trail boss. I cant say enough about Trail Boss for reduced loads.

I have an abundance of .44 special brass if you would prefer to just do it right. I am in the McKinney area. I would be more than happy to donate a few or if you want a lot I would trade for .44 mag brass if it has not been abused!


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7814730 04/22/20 02:28 AM
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^^ Disgruntled USPSA shooter? confused2

Trail Boss is a good powder for sure, but I ran the numbers awhile back and tite group was actually cheaper per round. I discovered the same thing with Titewad when they came out with 45 acp and 38 special load data. TB is sold in a 9 ounce can instead a pound, which led to less loads per container.

I haven’t done any accuracy testing between the two powders.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7814750 04/22/20 02:49 AM
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No, I don’t shoot any of the games, just enjoying shooting with friends! Yes, TB is not cheap compared to some other powders but since I only load it for a few special circumstances it’s worth the cost. And there really is not anything that works just as well as it does. I like the safety margin it provides.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7816965 04/23/20 08:48 PM
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Thanks for the offer on the brass, I just decided to stick with mag loads, and buy my self a grip that is more suited to hanging on to!

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7816999 04/23/20 09:13 PM
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Grips are everything, the grips on this 454, while pretty, were devastating.

Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7817041 04/23/20 10:02 PM
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Here’s Mine

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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7821133 04/27/20 05:25 PM
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Get new rubber grips and padded gloves. Look like he77 but will reduce the "hurt"


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7822010 04/28/20 01:35 PM
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That new 686 I bought has a great rubber grip, with finger grooves. I suggest you look to see who supplies them and get a set. I’m thinking Hogue, but just guessing.


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Re: Using 44 spcl data for 44 mag cases [Re: TAB] #7822015 04/28/20 01:38 PM
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pachmayer too


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