Spikes make up way more than 1%-2% of some herds. I killed around 25-40 per year for 3 yrs on ranch while I was there and that was a good % of the yearling herd that were taken out. That started in 2003 and continues today on that same ranch. The only thing they have done is to up the culling on the lower end of the 1.5 yr old bucks to 5pt or less are now taken out. The reason is due to them still have great numbers of 1.5 yr old bucks with 6pts or more....lots more than the lower end bucks. They also cull aggressively on 2 yrs olds and up by a point count and/or score by age class. The ranch is large and they have very good upper end deer in every age class, so it is a numbers game now.
I also have a friend who started culling does, bucks in all age classes(by score on 2 yr+) and killing spikes on a very large LF ranch back in the late 90's. He still does that same management plan today, but a bit more aggressively than 20+yrs ago when he started. The over-all herd is unbelievable good. It is a numbers game there also.
If you do not have a good buck to doe ratio and over carrying capacity then you have to address those issues first. If you do not have the resources and time to cull the whole herd then it is probably going to not do any good. IME there are more spikes on un-managed properties when starting out. You can blame it on being late born, late rut, pour buck to doe ratio, pour nutrtition, etc but it still boils down to a very low percentage of spikes to into the type of deer most want to manage for. It is a numbers game...again.

If a spike is over a year old and it is late December or early January it is going down. Common sense would dictate that you take out the inferior genes to help improve the genetic make up of the remaining herd moving forward.

because there are about 479 threads a year on spikes.

beating a dead horse, for the love of god already. I don't really GAF what anyone else does, I just think MOST people are FOS about herds full of 2+ year old spikes. I never said there's no such thing as a 2 year old spike, but the vast majority of spikes are yearlings.

keep shooting spikes... everyone. hell, shoot all the 1 year olds off for all I care. they're the smallest bucks on the ranch. whack em

Why wouldn't I shoot a spike... Spikes are yummy yummy yummy for my tummy tummy tummy I mean, if there is a spike standing next to a trophy buck, I'll shoot for the trophy buck... but I'm not going to pass up on a spike and filling my tags.

And if spikes were not considered inferior/undesirable the TPWD would not allow you to harvest them in AR zones and have them included in the after general season with does

If spikes where really that inferior why have extended season for them POST rut/general season. Why not manage them before they breed..........

Spike tag is an appeasement tag for AR’s to give them something ect with horns so that they can protect a larger segment of the 1-2 year old age class

There’s a lot of things that determine if you should shoot a spike but when it boils down to it I’d rather shoot a spike and a doe rather than a legal 2-3yr old that looks to be a beast the next yr

For example Jack County is a 5 Deer county with a maximum 2 Bucks all seasons. You can shoot one Buck over 13" spread and one spike during regular season.
If you do not get your spike during regular season you get another shot during the extended season.

So I do not believe it is an appeasement to give hunters a chance at horns for they already have that on an over 13" already and a spikes in two seasons.
Agree with you on the obvious that they are trying to protect young bucks to give them a chance to mature

Unfortunate that a large segment of really bad cull bucks are protected by the AR law

Words from STXRanchMan, "If you do not have a good buck to doe ratio and over carrying capacity then you have to address those issues first. If you do not have the resources and time to cull the whole herd then it is probably going to not do any good. IME there are more spikes on un-managed properties when starting out. You can blame it on being late born, late rut, pour buck to doe ratio, pour nutrtition, etc but it still boils down to a very low percentage of spikes to into the type of deer most want to manage for. It is a numbers game...again. "

You know, these words have merit. Al Brothers (google him) retired to Berclair and came to our Opening Weekend Lunch in Bee County a couple of times. I already knew who he was and immediately became fascinated with his use of nickel words and its overpowering ability to drive simple logic into my thick headed brain.

When asked about shooting spikes, he pretty much uttered the words quoted above. If trying to achieve a better deer herd, doe/buck management was more important than culling spikes. Get the ratio where you want and then start culling from bottom up. Once the desired ratio is in place and if you see two spikes of the same age, be sure to take out the one with the smaller spikes. At our place, taking out a 1st year spike is not a question - we don 't do it.

culling is over rated.

Don't stop now...

Mike Biggs photographed a spike deer for sever years, it finally bloomed into a healthy 8-10 point, don't recall exactly, but he was surprised by the sudden change.

You can feed a kid all you want during their growth years but it will never make him/her any taller as an adult. Genetics are set at conception and never change.

Lol, actually thats wrong but tell me that your biggest buck that you ever killed wasn’t a spike.....

Even in the best genetics you get a runt, and it doesn’t stay a runt, it eventually catches up with its siblings. Toss in fact you can’t dictate genetics on open range and your example is pointless

AR’s started in eastern TX to help increase age class. Then adopted in other countries after its success. AR’s in practice aren’t about genetics they about age class. As you noted if they where about genetics there would be an option for mature non legal spread AR bucks. Spike tag is what they consider a lessor of two evils to promote adoption of AR’s. It’s that simple. When you are among a well balanced herd with a very pronounced rut you see a significant decrease in spikes. End of the day if you have enough tags to eliminate every spikes you see, guess what you will continue to see spikes every-year, maybe to a lessor degree but they will be there purely of environmental factors.

If you where way over saturated with deer, and needed and have the resources to also take a large #’s bucks, you can knock out the bottom rung of each age class and that would include spikes if you please.

1.5 year old spikes don't bother me, but if they are still spikes at 2+ years, then they should be taken out IMHO.

I'm far from an expert in ageing deer on the hoof, so I look for the size of the body and the size (length) of the face, especially relative to the others around it to guide me.

When you shoot a doe, you never know what you are going to get..... She might be 7 1/2 and tough. But when you shoot a spike you know exactly what you are getting..... A young deer that is going to taste awesome!!!

Yes and no. Yes, the AR's in East Texas were put in place to increase the age class, which equates to letting more young bucks get older. However, the spike rule was put in place to provide an additional, positive impact using findings based on TPWD research. More specifically, the research found that if a young buck doesn't produce two forked antlers at 18 months or older, it will lag its peers for life. This is where the QDMA believers part ways with the TPWD in their belief that EVERY young buck should be allowed to grow older and "reach its full genetic potential". IMO, that's like saying every young boy has the potential to grow big enough to be able to play in the NFL. It ain't going to happen just as not every young buck is going to grow a great rack. The spike rule was put in place as a way for hunters to remove the lesser bucks when they see them.

There's absolutely no debating the positive impact that AR's have created on East Texas hunting. However, there's never a silver bullet and the spike rule is a good example of that. Sure, there are other factors that can cause a young buck to lag its peers in terms of antler development. And some, including myself, are somewhat concerned that we may be high-grading the herd by shooting too many of the wide racked bucks while being forced to leave the tall, narrow-racked deer (which I prefer to call antelope bucks). Still, biologists will tell you that if you want fewer of these narrow-racked bucks, you can't be hesitant to take them as young spikes.

The Kerr specifics of the study haven’t been replicated. Also only thing it Would of proved is that if you take a south tx breeder buck of known pedigree and a random yearly hill country spike(with no background, just historically lesser antler size) and line breed them to solely their very own offspring that the STX breeder bucks offspring will have a higher score by a percentage. That Stx buck reached a prime of 170” and 220lbs...

You cant impact something with “A” tag on a license. You are implementing a Trophy deer management(TDM) plan with one tag........

Incorrect on QDMA, QDMA peeps care about carrying capacity and habitat first and foremost not antler points.

Antlers and human body size aren’t even relatable, you can’t even compare the too. Parental body frame/size is a indicator not an absolute. You can’t even judge a doe’s antlers

If you are only shooting post mature bucks you will never high grade, you only have one tag....


Bottom line less then 5% of hunters on this forum have the resources and blood thirst to actually influence genetics and or cull to solely raise the exception. And you dang sure aren’t doing it off a TPWD hunting license tags with out running a ton of guided hunters

But for what purpose, a more healthy herd? What's the real driver behind creating a more healthy herd? If it's not to grow bigger antlers, why not just raise pen-raised deer for commercial purposes?

Most folks outside the QDMA community can easily see through the facade.

I didn't know that anyone considered Austin, Colorado, Fayette, Lavaca, Lee, and Washington counties " East Texas." As far as I was aware considered Oak prairie counties.

You know, where AR's started due to years of battling Co op's that all ended up failing even though their huge $$, a few politically prominent members & incessant whining made an impact on Austin to push their BS agenda.

If AR was ever about age structure the simple answer was to restrict buck harvest for 1 - 3 years,,, bingo, almost instant upward age structure.

A completely functional plan was offered to use rolling county 'no buck' years, summarily dismissed because the 'normal' hunter is too lazy or dumb to read & understand a rules & regulations booklet printed & distributed for free every year.

To this day I still run across ' hunters ' that have never heard of and have zero knowledge about AR's and have hunted in AR counties for a decade or more.

IMO, you have to take into consideration the negative results of earlier points-based restrictions that were tried in other states before the TPWD implemented AR's based on spread. Probably for no other reason other than points were first viewed as the way to gauge a trophy, state legislatures decided to use them as the way to protect the younger bucks. It was an approach that failed miserably in Mississippi and other states when the average size of the racks on harvested bucks grew smaller. Why? Because the deer that were being taken were the smaller, "basket-racked" deer with small mass on a narrow spread. Mississippi's Four-Point Rule opened the door for hunters to take these two-year, eight, ten, or even 12-points while protecting the spikes and lesser bucks that dominated the bottom of the gene pool. So when TPWD research uncovered a way to identify these lesser bucks at a young age, it became obvious that AR's based on spread was the best way to go. The smaller, basket-racked 8's, 10's, and 12's became the protected class while the young bucks that can't match them became fair and open game. In fact, the need to take the lesser bucks is so important the TPWD allows hunters to take more than one (in many counties) when they're unable to shoot a wide-racked buck.

QDMA is 100% total ecology of the entire landscape, it’s about herd interactions good/bad with the entire land scape. Thus harvest is determined by numbers needed via CC first and ratio, second, age class third. It is not based off of TPWD Trophy Deer Genetic plan.... You have always had some issue with QDMA, I think it’s hilarious you cant do your own research and constantly contradict your self about them, as you are now. They are AGAINST, HF, Breeders, DMP, etc. I’m not a fan of them based their private property rights stance but atleast I did my due diligence and research before a running my mouth randomly.

Anyone with half a brain can see they clearly take a huge departure from TDM. A true Trophy deer management plan meant for exceptional bucks is based off only feeding what you think is the exception/ top tier. Infact TPWD uses the Spike tag as a Appeasement tool cloaked as a TDM strategy when it does nothing in its very isolated practice. Very few have the resources to influence any numbers of spikes much less genetics . The spike tag as it is issued is the exact opposite off basing a harvest stipulation on habitat requirements and herd structure.

Personally I believe the only way to get proper Deer herd management is if it is a very large property or it is the dreaded HF. AR'S , shoot or not shoot spikes mean squat in the majority of Texas.