Hoggone 2.0 is a registered trademark and they are pushing it on a global scale. You never know who could really be behind it or how much money is actually behind it. All you know is it is poison and it failed initial testing comically.
If you continue to allow testing it will pass regardless of the outcome.
My objection to the first round of testing (besides collateral mortality to non-target species) was exactly for the MONEY aspect of it. It was painfully clear that the product was being 'fast tracked' and promoted by certain folks for monetary gain.
The toxicant itself did not fail to kill pigs. The delivery system (which a 3 year old could of told you would fail) was the issue and remains a concern for me.
Changes in the delivery system, the percent of toxicant used (now 1/2 what was used before), heavier coating, than before, the elimination of ground seeds (that attract birds), compartments in the hopper (instead of just free laying toxicant), no more use of whole kernel corn on top, etc...are all things you would know about if you had read the proposal.
Studies using placebo bait and various other control methods will be employed. The study as proposed (THIS TIME) is actually well thought out. And well it should be because the last attempt was a fiasco. When you get your [censored] handed to you in that kind of fashion....you had better come back a second time with all your ducks in a row.
If you are convinced that if there is enough money involved it will inevitably be passed, then you have already lost the battle, right? So....why not have the benefit of testing results?
You'll never eradicate animals as prolific as feral pigs with poison, without eradicating other species.
I don't understand how anyone could support this.
Did anyone take the time to actually read the Environmental Assessment Draft for the proposed study before making their decision to comment?
'Eradicate' other species (I.E. collateral mortality)....seriously?
I would ask folks to remember the solicitation is for the STUDY/TESTING of the toxicant NOT acceptance of its possible future use.
Read the Draft and you will see that several agencies will be involved in the study and that multiple 'concerns' are recognized and will be monitored.
I am in support of the 'study' if for no other reasons than these:
1. It will provide more and better information than previous studies. It is very limited in scale (One site in Texas, one site in Alabama) targeting specific sounders (about 100 total).
2. The study will do one of two things: Affirm that modifications make the product more plausible OR put a nail in the coffin of Hoggone.
I have serious concerns about the actual USE of the product, but am open minded enough to want to see additional studies conducted.
If you support the testing then let them start on your land or lease.
I would have no problem with this. Again, you've not read the study guidelines, means, methods and controls....have you?
I've read it and still have a problem with it. Now if there was a way to create a poison that would only kill hogs, I'd be ok with the testing. There is a toxicity chart in the report that shows it is more toxic to whitetail deer than hogs (big problem). My guess is this will get approved at some point. They will fail at the testing a few more times and eventually figure out how to pass in their controlled environment. Like you I'm very concerned about the delivery method. If food is available other animals are going to figure out a way to get to it.
"Please. Please. Why is this even necessary? These animals have the right to live without being poisoned. Please stop this. Can’t they be resettled? Why are they called feral swine? Does this mean wild boar?"
Lady Please, Please...do a little research before commenting.
Where exactly would we 'resettle' a few million hogs to...?
We could tell this lady about my hog resettling program...I have successfully resettled countless feral pigs to my dinner plate!
Personally, I think an attractive 'bounty system' would put a huge dent in them.
But would also bring out every poacher and hog dogger in Texas. Sighhhhhhhh.
But that is the whole point
Take a look at the buffalo. They were brought to the brink of extinction by over-hunting. I could be done with pigs too. But, it would have to be done on a very large scale, with ALL properties within the area targeted to participate, and there would have to be a large enough bounty to get enough "bounty hunters" to participate.
I've read it and still have a problem with it. Now if there was a way to create a poison that would only kill hogs, I'd be ok with the testing. There is a toxicity chart in the report that shows it is more toxic to whitetail deer than hogs (big problem). My guess is this will get approved at some point. They will fail at the testing a few more times and eventually figure out how to pass in their controlled environment. Like you I'm very concerned about the delivery method. If food is available other animals are going to figure out a way to get to it.
The toxicity to whitetail immediately caught my eye as well and they are going to have to come up with something that has VERY low rates of Collateral Kills or it is a non-starter as far as I am concerned.
I just don't see how they are going to overcome the myriad of other issues that are bound to arise. (misuse of the product, carcass disposal, access to the poison resulting from vomitus, etc)
Just so we are clear...I am very much skeptical it will prove itself and personally don't like the idea of poisoning large mammals to begin with, but I'm willing to look at the results from small scale studies.
Anyway, glad you read the literature (its a long read) and Thank You for your thoughts on it.
Personally, I think an attractive 'bounty system' would put a huge dent in them.
But would also bring out every poacher and hog dogger in Texas. Sighhhhhhhh.
But that is the whole point
Take a look at the buffalo. They were brought to the brink of extinction by over-hunting. I could be done with pigs too. But, it would have to be done on a very large scale, with ALL properties within the area targeted to participate, and there would have to be a large enough bounty to get enough "bounty hunters" to participate.
Not even a close comparison....Buffalos are big dumb animals that live in the open plains. We could wipe out every buffalo on the planet in 24 hours. Not being a jerk, just sayin'.
Just like Jesus, sometimes you gotta kill some hogs. Lone Star Mesquite . com RattleSnake Dan's Shredding Service
Personally, I think an attractive 'bounty system' would put a huge dent in them.
But would also bring out every poacher and hog dogger in Texas. Sighhhhhhhh.
But that is the whole point
Take a look at the buffalo. They were brought to the brink of extinction by over-hunting. I could be done with pigs too. But, it would have to be done on a very large scale, with ALL properties within the area targeted to participate, and there would have to be a large enough bounty to get enough "bounty hunters" to participate.
Not even a close comparison....Buffalos are big dumb animals that live in the open plains. We could wipe out every buffalo on the planet in 24 hours. Not being a jerk, just sayin'.
No comparison! How often do you see roadkill pigs on the side of the road compared to, say, whitetail deer? They are alot smarter and they breed faster, hide better, more weary. I don't normally see hogs on the roadside unless there has recently been some very heavy rain, compared to pretty much everything else that crawl I see almost every day.
"Please. Please. Why is this even necessary? These animals have the right to live without being poisoned. Please stop this. Can’t they be resettled? Why are they called feral swine? Does this mean wild boar?"
Lady Please, Please...do a little research before commenting.
Where exactly would we 'resettle' a few million hogs to...?
I don't believe this is even a real person's opinion. I think it was posted by someone affiliated with hoggone that is doing their best to make those in opposition look like a bunch of clueless fools.
Hoggone 2.0 is a registered trademark and they are pushing it on a global scale. You never know who could really be behind it or how much money is actually behind it. All you know is it is poison and it failed initial testing comically.
If you continue to allow testing it will pass regardless of the outcome.
My objection to the first round of testing (besides collateral mortality to non-target species) was exactly for the MONEY aspect of it. It was painfully clear that the product was being 'fast tracked' and promoted by certain folks for monetary gain.
The toxicant itself did not fail to kill pigs. The delivery system (which a 3 year old could of told you would fail) was the issue and remains a concern for me.
Changes in the delivery system, the percent of toxicant used (now 1/2 what was used before), heavier coating, than before, the elimination of ground seeds (that attract birds), compartments in the hopper (instead of just free laying toxicant), no more use of whole kernel corn on top, etc...are all things you would know about if you had read the proposal.
Studies using placebo bait and various other control methods will be employed. The study as proposed (THIS TIME) is actually well thought out. And well it should be because the last attempt was a fiasco. When you get your [censored] handed to you in that kind of fashion....you had better come back a second time with all your ducks in a row.
If you are convinced that if there is enough money involved it will inevitably be passed, then you have already lost the battle, right? So....why not have the benefit of testing results?
The testing will be used to justify the means and they will play with the statistics to sort them in a way, somehow, to make it appear acceptable. This os what the government does. It is how gun control legislation is passed. They will pull the wool over the eyes of the sheeple. I might be crazy but I know I am right about this.
By the way, I absolutely read and understood it. I don't think the birds or other animals are coming specifically to the seeds/corn in most cases. They are going straight after the peanut paste and little capsules the same as birds go after rocks.
Peanut paste is the clincher. Peanut paste? You really think that doesn't attract everything that lives in the woods?
Do me a favor amd smear some peanut butter on a tree next time you are in the woods. It is like crack to squirrels, deer, anything that likes acorns will Loooove peanut paste. It's like concentrated legumes on steroids. I mean it is literally concentrated legumes.
Here is a brief summary of Hoggone 2.0 from my point of view:
They double the coating and cut the dose in half? What I get from that is they just put a thicker coating on it. The stuff they are using could be carnauba wax, parraffin... who knowes? Every heard of "pan coated disks" (m&m's). They use flashy words but in layman's terms it is pretty much the exact same chemical with a thicker coating of some sorr of candy/sugar or wax. Something digestable that is ised to coat medication that taste bad. That could be all the difference they need to achieve half dosage really.
All that means to me is instead of making it some 2-4 and a half hours to die, a pig could live longer and cover more ground and spread it further!
And the "special delivery system" come on. They put it in a smaller trays/receptacles on the ground.
The corn- great, there is no corn anymore. They claim the corn is exactly what some pigs are after in the first place and not the peanut paste but also what the other animals were after? Almost every mammal in the woods loves that stuff. It's a joke.
Birds will avoid eating those pills the same way they avoid eating lead fishing sinkers- they won't avoid it at all. The scent and the activity around the trough will lure them in and their little bird brains/instincts will trigger them to eat the little capsules.
It doesn't seem to me they changed much if anything at all. They are just gonna keep throwing money at it until it gets approved. Same thing pharmaceuitical companies do.
Oh and one more thing- did no one stop to think for a second that a thicker coating would just make it even more palatable to other animals that are more finicky that hogs, which will literally eat corn mixed with diesel fuel?
How can you not see there is something fishy about this whole deal.
"A new delivery system" is laughable! It is practically the same delivery system scaled down, minus the corn. Unreal
I'm for continued 'research'...I just don't want anyone to try and 'Fast Track' a product like was done last time.
The 'delivery system' is going to be the problem (collateral death of other animals) and also the potential issue of what to do with 'carcasses'. It's not a good thing to have a bunch of decaying hog carcasses in/around water sources. The hogs will simply die wherever they die. And you can't just set up bait sites far away from water sources (and be successful). Then there is the inevitable misuse of the product that will surface in several forms.
I remain skeptical it can (in its present form) be used outside of State/Federal owned (and managed) lands with any degree of success. But I am not opposed to continued research into it.
I especially don't want it on state or federal managed lands. If you are not opposed to continued research then they can do it on your place!
And finally, is there nothing you noticed suspicious about the OP of this thread? He's got 5 posts in the forum, two in this thread, and started postin not month before creating this thread.
"Seems like dove weather out there today." In the middle of july? Dove season starts in September!
Out of nowhere a new guy named after this guy as far as I can tell:
I'm for continued 'research'...I just don't want anyone to try and 'Fast Track' a product like was done last time.
The 'delivery system' is going to be the problem (collateral death of other animals) and also the potential issue of what to do with 'carcasses'. It's not a good thing to have a bunch of decaying hog carcasses in/around water sources. The hogs will simply die wherever they die. And you can't just set up bait sites far away from water sources (and be successful). Then there is the inevitable misuse of the product that will surface in several forms.
I remain skeptical it can (in its present form) be used outside of State/Federal owned (and managed) lands with any degree of success. But I am not opposed to continued research into it.
I especially don't want it on state or federal managed lands. If you are not opposed to continued research then they can do it on your place!
Already said once, I am fine with that. It's a short term study involving a targeted 100 hogs in two different climate/geographic areas. It's just a little Sodium Nitrite (you eat it every time you consume cured meats) , nothing Nuclear going on here. And its not the Government doing this...they are just one group involved in overseeing it (which admittedly isn't too comforting).
But yeah, if they need a place to test it...I'm all in.
These landowners that say they have such a problem and then ask for $250 a night to come and shoot their hogs. The sport has been monetized and now people dont actually want them exterminated. Show me someone that lets people come kill hogs for free and change my mind.
Bingo! If folks would stop ponying up their cash to hunt a problem species, we might see a better dent in the population. Should be a matter of asking for help, then managing the number of hunters on property at any given time for safety concerns.
These landowners that say they have such a problem and then ask for $250 a night to come and shoot their hogs. The sport has been monetized and now people dont actually want them exterminated. Show me someone that lets people come kill hogs for free and change my mind.
Bingo! If folks would stop ponying up their cash to hunt a problem species, we might see a better dent in the population. Should be a matter of asking for help, then managing the number of hunters on property at any given time for safety concerns.
I'm guessing you are not a Land Owner with a hog problem?
It's actually pretty difficult to find responsible, effective, caring folks (the caliber of DNS for example) to hunt pigs.
Hell.....all of us Land Owners could let average Joe Hunter (with a hankering to rid me of all my hogs) on the property and achieve little more than running them over to the neighbors place.
If I just wanted the hogs gone for awhile (ran off of MY property, but becoming my neighbors problem) I'd just bring in some Hog-Doggers once a month. They would catch exactly one hog (if they have good dogs), spread the others out...and educate ALL of them. But at least I wouldn't have to worry about them shooting one of my Calves, leaving gates open, etc.....
If you get to looking $200-$250 is actually a pretty good price. Most places with good hogs cost more.
I don't buy in to the hog problem either, not from the perspective of damage to property.
I understand the liability, but let's be honest- if you had a problem with hogs that bad, you'd probably assume the risk of an occasional accident to rid yourself of a nuisance.
If your hogs are not killing enough calves or damaging enough crops to justify in your mind letting a hunter in that may or may not have an accident of some kind, then you must not have a hog problem.
Same with any other kind of invasive species.
If it is a source of revenue then it is not a problem.
"Oh well that huner will probably run em all off on to the neighbors place"
If you and your neighbors have it that bad then why can't ya'll just put your heads together and do a occasional german style driven hunt. I think that would be awesome.
Especially if you gotta pay to play. An old school driven hunt would be a blast!
"Oh well that huner will probably run em all off on to the neighbors place"
If you and your neighbors have it that bad then why can't ya'll just put your heads together and do a occasional german style driven hunt. I think that would be awesome.
Especially if you gotta pay to play. An old school driven hunt would be a blast!
It's clear to me....you don't know your A$$ from page 8 about hogs, hog hunting or the destruction to property hogs are capable of.
Equally clear....you are not a Land Owner with hogs. But ramble on...........
"Oh well that huner will probably run em all off on to the neighbors place"
If you and your neighbors have it that bad then why can't ya'll just put your heads together and do a occasional german style driven hunt. I think that would be awesome.
Especially if you gotta pay to play. An old school driven hunt would be a blast!
It's clear to me....you don't know your A$$ from page 8 about hogs, hog hunting or the destruction to property hogs are capable of.
Equally clear....you are not a Land Owner with hogs. But ramble on...........
Equally clear- you want $200-$400 a gun PER DAY to shoot pigs on your place then you don't have a hog problem!
Worried about hunters running them into the neighbor's place until he pulls out some cold hard cash!
Willing to pay for poison but not gonna let a hunter on your place without paying good money- so scares to see a guy get a free pass you'd rather put out poison. That is shameful.
If I were a land owner I'd make hunters pay good money to shoot pigs on my place too, but I would not sit there and bash them and put out poison, etc.
For the kind of money most are asking to "help out with these pigs" I hope they tear your place apart!
I can see both sides of the argument, As a landowner, I wouldn’t want to bring hunters of unknown ability and ethics onto my land. I also don’t want my neighbor using toxins that may end up effecting my land or water tanks. The term “safe toxin” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Read the extensive labeling on any toxin and you will always see potential side effects. The problems frequently don’t materialize right away and seldom appear in short term studies. Round Up was suppose to be safe for weed control and is still widely used for agricultural and home use, but after widespread use over an extended period of time it was discovered that it can cause cancer to unsuspecting users.
Last edited by Pappybear; 08/19/1904:22 PM.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
I can see both sides of the argument, As a landowner, I wouldn’t want to bring hunters of unknown ability and ethics onto my land. I also don’t want my neighbor using toxins that may end up effecting my land or water tanks. The term “safe toxin” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Read the extensive labeling on any toxin and you will always see potential side effects. The problems frequently don’t materialize right away and seldom appear in short term studies. Round Up was suppose to be safe for weed control and is still widely used for agricultural and home use, but after widespread use over an extended period of time it was discovered that it can cause cancer to unsuspecting users.
The potential for 'mis-use' is perhaps my greatest concern. Then too...the 'delivery system' itself (at present) is something less than perfected...to put it mildly.
When I think of of my Brother-in-law (a more perfect moron never walked this earth) and the idea that he could get his hands on a Toxin like this one, it just scares me to death. So...I certainly have reservations as well.
It's the same peanut paste in a smaller receptacle. They didn't add corn, whoo-pee.
The penut paste is the most attractive ingredient to wildlife, not the corn. Pretty much anything on four legs with fur loves that stuff.
I totally get why you don't let just anybody on your land. I would not either. I damn sure dont let just anybody in my house.
But there has to be a few people that you know and trust that are willing to help if it's so bad you want to use poison. Why not a trap?
Some videos on youtube using the big round traps on some kind of spiral trigger, set off from your cellphone when you see enough pigs inn there.
So you can let them get used to it over time and when they get lazy, bam!
Trapping and snaring have been the two most successful methods for me. I also have two dedicated 'hog stands' with feeders that run year 'round and LED lights on large car batteries and photocells.
And you are correct....the proposed delivery system is so little changed as to be laughable. And we are in agreement about the peanut paste being an attractant for just about anything that walks, crawls or flies. Decades ago...we used to screw the lid of a peanut butter jar to a tree, cut the bottom out of the (plastic) jar and screw it back onto the lid. Deer would flock to it. As would coons, squirrels, birds...........
I've been battling hogs on my property for about 30 years. Some years more successfully than others, but they just keep making more.
