So, pardon my ignorance here (longtime Texas hunter; never gone west)...

Do you just sign up for these tags online? Then, if you get one, you just drive to that area with camping stuff and hunting equipment and get after it? Stated differently, how do you know where to go and what the hell you are doing?

I'm having a little trouble wrapping my mind around this public land thing.

If you want to PM me I’ll give you my number and walk you through it.

For all intensive purposes, if you are just starting off, you have multiple states you can just buy tags online or at Walmart, I wouldn’t worry about messing with the application process, right now.

OTC tag units can range from crowded to void of people for miles. Just depends on where or how deep you go.

Yes you just wing it. If you dont know the area at all, google earth is good for finding water and meadows and such.

Every year one doesn’t apply is one less bonus and/or preference point you will have for any animal you may want to hunt someday in that state.
It’s too late for this year, but between now and early next year when the application periods begin is a good time to learn about the process.
One simply doesn’t have to limit oneself to hunting OTC every year. It’s neither necessary nor smart to do so. Learn the system and use that knowledge to your advantage, as SherpaPhil pointed out.
After a few years you can be hunting every year - with many of those years having a good limited draw tag in your pocket.

We all need a safe space now.

Not everyone is as blessed finically as you NP. If they are they will go the route of Guides, tag service, Landowner tags, BC, Alberta, Mexico Etc the MANY years they don’t draw. Not everyone has the upto 2k plus a year to loose in licensing and PP costs along with floating the cost of up to 20 grand on tags.

More of a entry level over view thread.
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For an unguided newbie I highly advise if it comes down to tags vs draws/pp monetarily.... go tags over draws(or be very narrow on your states, pick the CO’s(likely to draw more tags over same amount of years) over the Nevada’s, etc). I personally would rather hunt then sit at home.

Also if someone is just starting out, make sure you really love it. Points game, raffle and lottery tags gets expensive. And it’s a long term strategy with penalties if you have to sit out consecutive years.

My personal perspective (from when I didn’t have the financial ability), is the must apply (on a limited budget) states are Idaho, CO, somewhat AZ. All have units with OTC options, and limited entry (via animal, time of year or weapon). Basically learn the unit while hunting OTC or easy draw, then it ups your success odds of when you draw the Limited entry tag, because you already know the unit. Fourth state I’d add is NM ‘s random draw based on entries. Some great units with decent odds.

I've had the opportunity over my lifetime to hunt HI, WA, CA, ID, MT, WY, CO, NM, AZ - not in the west CT, MA.

They were all adventures, didn't really kill much, saw a lot of different country.
My favorites were WA, CA both quite a few years ago, followed by a toss up NM & AZ.

If you have a hankering to do it go for it, don't let anyone talk you into it or make you feel like you're missing out.
You can see all that country & have just as much fun without hunting for a lot less $, backpacking, hiking, camping etc...

Yo BOBO! Can I call you and let you walk me thru this as well?

Ernest If you are serious, then do this, 1st hand knowledge is worth what you'd pay for a guide if you have never gone West. I think the biggest hindrance for new folks is no clue where to start and where to go in general, then add, the hunt style for success is very different to what most are accustomed too.

Some on here may not like what I am about to say but so be it. Be it Colorado, New Mexico or Texas. If you don't know where the deer are drive the roads before dark. If there are animals around this is the time you will see them. You can hike to the remotest part of any State and you think. No one has been here so there must be game. That is BS. Game is here the food is. For Colorado Elk it is in the high country. When the snows start they move down. I have even seen them fly around in the Route N. F. before season and throw out charges to disband the herds. I have also seen after heavy snows in the same area lines of hundreds of migrating Elk moving out of the high country to the lower. I have seen very few MD in the high country. To me it seems that most will summer where ever there is plenty to eat. I have never seen the Deer migrations that you see with Elk. Elk hunting depends on when you get to hunt. End of Sept. or Early Oct. they will be in what we used to call "Dark Forest". Tall trees on the dark side of a mountain. Except at evening and early in the morning where they would come out into what we called "Parks". Cleared out area usually in saddles. I have seen the most elk in North NM around Angle fire and Red River. Also around the Pieredra River above Chimney Rock Co. Mule deer around the Carson NF in NM and Dry Creek Basin and Crawford CO. And Like I said before I get trashed. this is only my opinion.

IDK why you bring my finances up except to stir up mess. Nothing I talked about above relates to going on expensive hunts. I didn’t once mention guides, landowner tags, BC, Alberta, Mexico - any of that. Yet you have to because you are a broken record when it comes to getting your silly little digs in.

Anyone who wants to hunt out west can and should learn the application game. It has zero to do with finances. In fact, the less finances you have, the more imperative it is to learn the game.
A premium tag costs exactly the same as a crappy tag in each state. Do you not know this? If not, you don’t know much.
If you do know it, then you know your post is misleading and trolling.

Nobody has to “sit at home”. That was explained thoroughly.

OTC tags are fine. Relegating oneself to them every year is not necessary - even on a budget. Learn how the systems work in each state and apply in as many as your budget will allow. The more chances you have in the more separate pots, the better your odds. BTW, Wyoming should be on anyone’s “must apply” list.

That's not exactly true. In New Mexico if you want to hunt any of the high demand/quality units for elk or mule deer, those tags will cost more than standard units. Not trying to be nitpicky, just pointing out the one state I know.

Too broad in making my point I guess. There are limited exceptions.
One can also pay more for tags to increase one’s odds of drawing a la WY’s “special” and “regular” draws, for example.

The broad point still stands. Tag fees are not the prohibitive factor why many don’t go hunting in higher success areas. Not applying or not applying steadily and/or wisely usually is the reason. If you hunt most any animal out west, you’ve got to have a tag - and every tag has a cost.

WY general elk tags and regional mule deer tags offer some of the best hunting in the country.
Montana has some of the best open elk and deer hunting areas also. One must still apply for the tags in most cases though.

Nothing I said was out of line or not true. You are only looking for premium tags, you said that in the other thread, if you don’t draw you buy a premium hunt/LO,etc. you aren’t going on cheaper, easy draw DIY hunts. Nothing negative about that. You said you had only been on one OTC hunt., nothing wrong with that. You just aren’t average in monetary restrictions. Congrats it’s not a knock.

It is impossible to draw a premium tag every other year. Especially if you a limited in application costs. Even more impossible if you are just starting out in the PTS game.

In regards to Relegating oneself, it is nothing more then a necessity until you can acquire enough points to draw or have realistic chance to draw. In many cases that’s 10 plus years and on the extreme 20 years for the most coveted, but For what it cost just to apply in AZ, UT and NV every year you can buy an OTC tag every year.

Most states the difference between a 3 pt unit and 5 pt and OTC isn’t much.

Again if money is tight I’d buy tags before I’d buy points.

If Someone is reading this thread and They have never hunted out west and They have just enough money for a tag and gas...forget draws, applications etc . Go hunt.

My outfitted hunts out of the country have nothing to do with this thread and never have.

I have never always just looked for “premium” tags. I was “poor-boying” it before you were born. I have been on several OTC/general tag hunts. This year I’ll be pronghorn hunting in CO, for example. As for others, the moose, desert sheep, and mountain goat tags I have drawn were available for anyone to apply for just as I did. Money didn’t have anything to do with it outside the application fees which I discussed thoroughly above from a cost perspective, giving several options depending on one’s desired level of financial commitment. None of those options were more than 2K a year, and they went down from there. In any event, these posts are not about me and never have been, they are about the process in general for everyone who is on a budget.

There are 10-13 western states depending on what you define as a “western state”.

Anyone can “go hunt” on an OTC every year in one or two or even three states, all the while applying in as many other states as one’s finances will allow up to $2000 annually. Most can come up with 2K a year if hunting out west in better success areas over the long run than OTC tags provide is important to them. For half that one can apply in half the western states, for a quarter of that a quarter of them, etc. The options are there for everyone at their own comfort level. Again, applying for multiple species allows more bang for the buck in each state.

If one wants to relegate oneself to OTC hunts in tough and crowded units every year, that’s fine. But it’s not necessary. With a little more investment in time and money, anyone can be have much better hunts in much better areas with much better chances of success year in and year out. And as the years go by, it only gets better. As in other areas of life, having a plan and a strategy to go with it pays dividends. And when it comes to playing the application game out west, the plan and the strategy is much more important than having big $$$. Anyone serious about hunting out west would do themselves a big favor to learn the game. The more you know, the better.

Some great limited entry tags are available for many species across many states every year. No one will draw one or more every year, but with perseverance you will draw some of them some years. One thing’s certain: you will never draw any of them ever if you don’t apply for them.

Your statement about 3-5 point tags not being better in most cases than an OTC tag is not only not true, it’s an irresponsible one to make on a thread like this. Again, it shows either you lack veracity, knowledge, or both when it comes to the subject of hunting out west. Simply put, you are obviously overly-enamored with OTC tags. All the folks building points in western states are not stupid, BOBO.

One immediate strategy is to look at WY and MT tags that are available every year over CO and other state’s “off time” OTC tags. One can hunt the elk and/or mule deer ruts in those states in some very good areas - especially if they are willing to get back in some.

As I posted in the wolf/bear thread, I just returned from my first Western hunting trip and it was amazing! I would have considered it worth the $ even if I’d have come home empty handed. The fact that I shot a bear was icing on the cake. The fact that it was a trophy bear was priceless. Skip the lease for a year and go exploring. If you’re poor like me and can’t afford a lease, save up and go as soon as you can. You won’t regret it.

Montana is a perfect example of what I’m talking about, Montana is one of the most expensive states to apply In or to even build points in. Do you realize why so many Texans Hunt NM and CO, Montana is 24 hrs away it’s cuts out three days of hunting for most. For average joe that’s a lot

I apply in 10 plus states a year(2-5 species) and have for well over 10 years in most. If I only wanted premium deer/elk tags, I may have got to go on max of 3 hunts if I lowered my hunt standards . I very aware of what it cost me per year,

So we will just have to agree to disagree. No way I would urge someone to only hold out for a premium tag, I’d tell them to go hunt. If they can’t afford the PP process, don’t sweat it, go hunt. Lots of great OTC units with great animals in it. Most Premium units are limited entry premium because the terrain is so mild and it’s easier to hunt.

If anyone wants to help with applications or just general knowledge pm me I’m more then happy to help, recommend units etc.

Love Idaho, buddy took a 190 Mulie buck in OTC unit, I missed a 170 the following year and passed on a few 250’sh bulls. I was itching for a wolf though. Unfortunate no spring bear in CO anymore.

Even though it's too late to apply for Wyoming tags, preference points are available for purchase from July 1-October 31. Antelope points are $30, deer points are $40, and elk points are $50. Anyone who is just getting started can purchase a preference point this year for one or more of these animals, and go into the 2019 drawing with a leg up. Wyoming has limited draw tags, general tags, and some leftover tags. I started hunting in Wyoming in 2000 and have hunted there nearly every fall since then. I have never hunted with an OTC tag. NP is correct that, with just a little planning, anyone can regularly draw reasonably good tags in Wyoming, especially if you are open to hunting antelope, deer, or elk. Once you get started you could hunt antelope, deer, elk, then repeat, always drawing with at least two preference points for each animal. You may not draw primo tags, but you can draw good ones. Wyoming limits the numbers of general tags available, which is one of the reasons I keep going back.

It took me a couple of years to figure out Wyoming's system. I really have not had any reason to look elsewhere, but I am also not holding out for tags that generally require high point totals. Of course, if anyone expands to two, three or more western states, they could expect to draw better tags.

I would encourage anyone who thinks they might like western hunting to give it a try. An antelope hunt would be a great place to start. I still enjoy hunting deer in Texas but, for me, it doesn't compare to my trips out west.

Your agenda to keep misstating what I have written about is as shopworn as it is silly. This has never been about “holding out for a premium tag”. Ever. It’s not really important though, so I’ll move on.

What is important is the poor advice given.

Recommending an “OTC” strategy with limited applications outside it simply sets newcomers up for year after year of marginal hunting. Worse yet, your “go-to” OTC states are CO and AZ - probably among the worst OTC hunting in the country. For example, AZ’s OTC tags are in units where they are trying to get rid of the elk (see below) - kinda throwing cold water on the “use them to learn the unit” strategy you advocate them for. Basically, they suck and are not worth the NR price.

Anyone can get better tags than those first time out and most every year going forward. Wyoming and Montana general tags are prime examples. Not taking advantage of general tags at all or WY and MT specifically for elk, deer, and pronghorn would be doing a disservice to guys looking to hunt out west. Not only do you not mention them, you wrongly mislead about MT and, by doing so, steer guys away from one of best states to hunt out west. Crazy. MT has many 100% draw elk, deer, and pronghorn hunting opportunities that are fantastic. And they cost about the same as any other western state. Sure it’s a drive, but guess what? The reason CO OTC tags are called “pumpkin army” tags is because so many have the mindset that they aren’t willing to drive a little extra. Better hunting sometimes means a willingness to do a little more to take advantage of it. Funny that you love Idaho, but advise to stay away from Montana because you say it is too much of a drive - when they sit right next to each other.

Toepuncher and Wytex explained the great opportunities in WY which, again, you don’t even mention. Again, crazy. Probably the best opportunities and “bang-for-buck” western state in the country.

A synopsis of all the western states’ OTC/general hunting tags available for elk is below.The picture for deer and pronghorn is even better.

You are the only serious western hunter I know or have even read about who basically advocates that newcomers make OTC tags a centerpiece of their western hunting strategy.

For everyone else who knows even a little about the application process out west, OTC tags are what they are: a fallback for the years you don’t draw better tags. Because most any draw tag is better than an OTC tag - and anyone can draw one or more of them to hunt just about every year with just a little planning.





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Montana is a 24hr one way drive for the same drive Idaho has a cheaper application process and better draw odds and more OTC tags. You can get two elk tags, Mulie deer tag, Whitetaiil tag, bear tag, wolf tag and lion tag over the counter, infact as a non-resident you use you elk or deer tag for wolf, bear or lion. Idaho has also the best odds for sheep and moose. If you don’t draw a limited entry Elk tag in Montana and want a refund you only get a percentage of you tag cost back, it’s the most expensive state to build points in.

WY is a good state I have 8 PP and still haven’t drawn the tag I want, with that said you have to USE an outfitter for any wilderness areas.

If I’m the only western hunter you know that’s setting realistic expectations and letting people know that there are a ton of good OTC out there so you don’t have to set at home while building pointing, then you probably don’t need to be on an introduction thread.

If I’m the only person telling people that a lot of units you can learn very well while hunting with OTC options every year... while waiting to draw or build points for the same unit but limited entry species/time of year..... then you need to talk to more DIY hunters. It’s a way for guys to get to hunt all while increase odds with out paying outfitter money

As far as pumpkin army, that’s a product of ones self. I have no problem getting away from people in any OTC tag I’ve ever hunted. You have the Pumkin army in Limited entry units also if you choose to hunt that way. I have yet to go on an OTC tag and get skunked. Have I eaten tags yes but that’s a product of me passing on certain type animals or missing

Again if someone is looking to start hunting out west, don’t stress about draws or applications or thier costs. Go hunt, the PP can get expensive and it’s a long term strategy, so one year isn’t going to kill you.

There are only a handful of states you have the realistic ability to draw a really premium tag first go at. NM, Idaho are the big ones with best odds. Wy has decent but restricts NR from wilderness

AZ, Montana, Utah, NV all have “slight” chance with 0 PP.... the application cost of those four alone can buy an Elk tag every year. So if you want to hunt more then two states every year there are OTC options to allow it.

Did you two date in high school?

Don't beat me.

You are a broken record with tunnel vision who apparently:

1)Cannot comprehend the written word i.e. general draw tags. You act as if they don’t exist. Even if you had never heard of them before this thread several have explained them; and
2)Apparently don’t know the difference between a limited-entry tag and a “premium” tag. All premium tags are limited entry tags, but all limited entry tags are not “premium” tags that require anywhere near the number of points you discuss. Many good tags can be had from 0-5 points in many states. Contrary to what you state, no state provides a decent or even realistic chance to draw a “premium” tag the first time out, but several provide sure or almost sure chances to draw a good limited entry tag (much better than any OTC tag).

All that has been discussed thoroughly. We both agree everyone starting out can “go hunt”. I’m just letting folks know that low-success OTC tags are not their only option to do that. Simple as that.

I’m sorry ducknbass, I’m not trying to perpetuate the “fued”. I’m really not. That is what it is I guess.

I just hate to see narrow and/or misleading information put out there on a thread like this, the point of which is to give tips to those thinking about hunting out west. It’s hard for me to comprehend any knowledgeable western hunter would not put Wyoming and MT on their application list when talking to guys just starting out and, worse yet, discourage them from hunting Montana at all. Just trying to be more thorough is all.

Hunting out west is a blast. I encourage everyone to give it a go. Good hunting!

I have had very good luck drawing either a MD tag or elk tag, or both the 3 times I hunted Montana outside of Boseman in the Gallatin NF Ruby River area. Never got skunked. Took a nice MD and antelope. I really like that area because of the terrain divergence.

I look at General draw tags just like OTC, not All LE units/hunts are created equal. The very premium ones are very long term plans. Some LE hunts/units have worse or same odds as OTC. Just because it’s LE doesn’t mean it’s better.

There are Certain tags that are OTC but ment for Private Land more or less. Your CO antelope tag is probably a perfect example, so I would put it well above some WY, AZ and even a few NM tags.

If you think telling people that a lot of states have multiple OTC opportunities across many species is furtive and bad advice especially on a limited budget I don’t know what to tell you. If I was just started out as a DIY hunter on limited budget I’d buy tags over gear and gear over points. If it came down to additional $200 in PP/App vs boots. I’d buy boots.

OK, whatever. You are still putting words in my mouth I never said while backing off of/changing may of your own erroneous ones made earlier. Again, no matter. It’s all out there for anyone to read at this point and reach their own conclusions. So it’s all good.

BTW, there is no such thing as a “premium” general tag. The word “general” describes them because they are available to all right away (most) or some within a short time (usually a year or two). There are good ones and, of course, some are better than others (most all are better than any OTC tag, which is common knowledge). But none are “premium” and none are “long term” as far as plans go. “Premium” is a word of art in the draw game that refers to OIL tags and or very hard to draw tags like Paunsagant in Utah or The Strip in Arizona, to name just two examples. Just FYI.