Show it or IDGAF. You are claiming something bench rest guys cannot prove. I think you are full of chit. Just my opinion though.

You’re not understanding Sapper. MOA and group size are not the same.

A mile is what, 1760 yards? If I have a gun that shoots 1/4 moa, the group size should be about 4.5”. It’s still a 1/4 moa gun. The number value changes as distance gets longer.

I’ve posted the groups before.

I’m not claiming anything impossible. Benchrest guys prove it all the time. I don’t think you’re understanding the difference in moa and group size. A 1/4 moa rifle will make about a 2.5-2.6 inch group at 1000 yards. It’s still a 1/4 moa gun.

I get that but bullet performance can change and become less consistent at longer distances. A gun that shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 might shoot a 15 inch group at 1000 yds and that ain’t no 1/4 MOA.

nobody on here think 1/4 MOA at 1000 yds is 1/4”.

If it shoots 1/4 moa at 100, it still is at 1000 even if the shooter didn’t do his part.

Seems like the question asked was simple. Who thinks they could start at 100 yards and shoot a .25 inch group. Then a .5 inch at 200, .75 at 300, 1 at 400, so on until 2.5 at 1000. Dont know where it got off the rails to "if your gun shot .25 at 100 it automatically shoots 2.5 at 1000"

In terms of pure MOA (not talking about a gun here) you are correct 1/4 MOA at 100 yards is 1/4 MOA at 1,000 yards.

But what the others are trying to say here is just because your gun shoots 1/4" at 100 yards doesn't mean it will shoot 1/2" at 200, 1" at 400 and 2.5" at 1,000. There are lots of dynamics that come into play as the bullet speed changes while it is gong downrange.

What I am saying is you can have Load A that shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 yards but at 1,000 yards only holds 2 MOA and you can have load B that shoots 1/2 MOA at 100 yards and all the way out to 1,000 yards. Or in other words, your best load at 100 yards may not be your best load at 1,000 yards.

Ok ten, it's not that simple. A good solid 1/4 MOA load @ 100 yards with a velocity spread of a mere 10 fps in my 7 RM will deterioratate to almost a 1/2 MOA load @ 1,000 due to a 2.1" variation in drop that had not manifested at 100 yards. That is if my hold is perfect. Factor in the wind and things get a lot more difficult. Distance amplifies shot to shot variation. Both wind and velocity and the effect is not linear.

It looks to me like there are two parallel arguments going here. Both sides are technically correct in their own arguments, they just aren't technically arguing the same thing.

EDIT: The OP's question was gray, but one group is arguing white and the other is arguing white.

3 shot or 5 shot group ?



for you long range guys , what would you say your average competitor shoots group size
under ideal conditions. ?

MO

Average shooter, probably 3/4 to 1.5 moa, depending on the wind. Your top shooters can shoot better than that.

I have seen a shooter call his cold bore shot (first round, cold bore) to hit the bolt hanging the steel target at 800 yards. And he did it. Not the 1 moa target itself, but the bolt hanging the target. We were floored, and he said he'd hit it at 900 also, if needed. And I certainly believed him.

Once you know a rifle and your ammo intimately, you become very proficient with it. The problem I see is most shooters play around with too many bullets, loads, rifles and scopes, instead of just settling down on one set up (ammo, scope, rifle, etc) to get good at it.

This is why I train with a 308, and when needed pull out the 6.5 for flatter trajectory and less wind. The 308 will teach you wind.

This is why I sold my Tikka 223 (other than using that as leverage to get my CTR). I wanted to focus on one rig, one caliber, one load. So my CTR is the only bolt gun I own and will be for the foreseeable future until I shoot out the factory barrel and build a semi-custom on the action.

Fact!

I almost want to say, build a trainer (for poaitional shooting) only at least after you have hand loaded enough, and shot enough to shoot out one barrel. I am finally going to have a trainer after putting over 1000 down a .308, and shooting out two 6.5mm barrels.

I'm thinking 1/2 to 1 MOA, at 100 yards. Those numbers do not carry beyond that.

My game is different from the sniper game (JG loves it when I refer to it as such ) I shoot long range bench rest. You better hold a 1/3 in ideal conditions and 1/2 in heavy wind and/or mirage...and be able to put them where you need them. That is to be competitive and have a chance at winning...I'd say average guy probably shoots 1/2 in ideal and 3/4 in less than ideal conditions.

That's about what I see out of myself and my shooting buddies. And then throw in that occasional explainable (I'm sure there's a reason, I just didn't catch it) flyer that happens every now and then.

I’m a 1MOA shooter at best, at 100 yards. Took gun out to 800 yards few weeks ago and couldn’t ring the 1 MOA plate, but wore out the 2 MOA. I get lucky every now and again and pull off some stupid small group, and then I won’t see that for another 2-3 years.

So for me to think that I could hold 1/4 MOA out to 1000 yards without any type of rest is wishful thinking.

Ammo was much of your problem. There are not too many mass produced boxes of ammo that will hit that 1 MOA plat at 800 yards. A hand-load on the other hand...

Not a chance many if they are being honest imo. I could make hits consistently at moa out to 700/800 and 1.5 to 2.0 moa in ideal conditions and knowing the variables off the bench with someone confirming with calls. At 100 maybe 200 I'd take a 1/4 moa challenge and feel reasonably confident with mess around money but not further.

Great point with the 308 I do the same with 5.56 since it's much cheaper. In fact after reading your deep thoughts post I probably have the most comfort with my 5.56 even though I have rifles that are better. It's what I get most trigger time with.

True. I don’t have the money, time, or space to reload right now. I have thought about having Chad work up a load for me, but I also think it would be money wasted on a factory barrel

I don't think I have any glass that would allow me to accurately keep the correct POA that tight regardless of the rifle, ammo, wind calls, or my ability to drive the gun. Though all those other things would be outside my abilities too, especially if I had either too much coffee or not enough.

-ww

Heck, in a couple of days (when I get home) i’ll hang some fresh targets at 100 yards and see if I can shoot a few 1/4 inch groups with my most accurate rifles. The guns will do it, and on some days I can do it. Seems like most days i’ll twitch a flyer when I have a good group going. On a good day, maybe I can still do it at 200, but out past that it’s not happening. I would be stunned to watch a guy hit a BOLT at 800 yards and call the shot. That’s big league stuff.

I just wonder how many on the forum could go out and shoot a 5 shot 1/4 inch group at 100 yards. We all have those targets that show that we did it once, or maybe even many times. But can you do it cold bore tomorrow? Take 5 rounds and try it. Saturday morning i’ll take my 3 most accurate rifles and try it. I probably can with that 260 that Chad had done for me. It has a great barrel and trigger. And the old 220 with the Douglas barrel can do it. The 223 can, but it’s lightweight and I have to be having a good day.

I think with cold bore it comes down to knowing the rifle intimately and having the components to do it. When ya think about it a 5 shot group is a 4 shot group with a cold bore. I also think shooting a 1/4 moa group is easier than hitting a 1/4 moa target. Some days my breathing and mechanics suck but still turn out good groups like 1/4 moa at 100yds, but since I might be pulling. They are not where I intended them. Those days show the rifles capabilities. when i hit my intended spot and produce those groups that's actually me.