I'm a one shot wonder. I only shoot my deer rifle once before season to see if it's still on, and I don't miss.

that's what all the one shot wonders say until they do miss.....

One shot no miss kills aren't hard. Practice as much as I did when a kid and you can actually make the prey fall to the left or right and also run the direction you want it go so you don't have to tote it so far. If you don't believe me ask the blind man, he saw it all.

Good posts Dan.

Shoot your 22 a dozen/hundred/thousand times a year and you will find you are much better prepared during hunting season!!!

I agree with this also. My wife and I shoot about 5000 rounds of .22 a year. It is quiet and we sit on our porch or go to the creek to shoot turtles. The last 2 years it has been a blast to sit 25yards from our backyard feeder and shoot rats. There are hundreds of them.

Holy smokes guys. Shooting ain't that hard.
I teach 10 year olds with just 2-3 shots, then go get them a deer.
Learn the basics and do it. 99% of our deer are shot from window sills.

Yes, it's a wonder I can kill anything.

No it's not that hard, yet many people get in their own head, and screw it up. Or they flat out forget the correct way, and revert back to bad habits. I see it on a monthly basis. 100 yard white paper, and white steel out to 800 yards. With great glass I can see where every bullet goes, and at some point each day someone will say "I pulled it", or "that was my fault". And that's during extremely stable shooting, prone or on a bench.

Throw in field positions (which we do toward the end of the day) and it's a whole new set of problems. Guys forget to breathe, they forget the trigger control, and follow-through they've been working on all day long.

And children, teens, and 20-somethings are usually easier to teach, and maintain the correct way. They don't have decades of bad habits to over come.

At 32 years old I purchased my first compound bow, that is very nice. I walked across the road to Randy's house. He's an expert archer with 40 years experience. I said "teach me the right way, so I don't develop bad habits."

So, those that learn to shoot the right way won't develop bad habits like drinking, smoking, cursing, etc.?

Dan made some very good posts.

More practice reduces, but will never eliminate, the biggest factor in making a shot reliably, which is the human.

In moments of high stress or excitement, the person does not rise to the occasion, but sinks to the level of their training.

The saying comes from music, but applies here as well: amateurs practice until they can do it right, professionals practice until they cannot do it wrong.

There is a considerable gap between those two points.

I guess "practice" can mean different things maybe. I have never "practiced" shooting in my life. I did grow up roaming the woods with a pellet gun and then a .22. I suppose that was good "practice" (maybe the best).

I have fired probably less than 500 rounds through center fire rifles in 45 years of hunting/shooting. That includes all setting up/sighting in/checking zero (which everyone should do) on many rifles and all shots on critters. Maybe less than 400, heck maybe less than 300 IDK.

I am not a LR hunter and have no desire to be. My object is to get as close as possible without risking detection - the vast, vast majority of the time means under 200 yards (usually well under). I'm not going to post details over that span, but my game bag has not suffered as a result.

I simply don't obsess over shooting. To my simple mind, it's firm to the shoulder, control your breathing, and squeeze the trigger. The bullet will go where the crosshairs are when the trigger breaks. Recognizing I am not a marksman, I try and put my crosshairs are right in the center of the largest area of vitals provided for the given shot to provide myself the greatest margin for error. I know my limitations. My goal is to make sure I put the animal down, not be able to tell about how I hit the precise hair I was aiming for. Oddly enough, the hit is usually right in the middle of that vital area, where I was aiming. Go figure.

Shooting is certainly an important part of hunting. However, to my mind it's no more important than any of a thousand other parts that lead up to point of being in a position to have the animal you want in your crosshairs. It gets a lot of ink, discussion, etc. because it is something everyone can do without being in the field, many enjoy shooting, and there's a ton of minutia that can be cussed and discussed over and over and over again. Which many find fun and enjoy. Plus equipment choices (rifles, optics, brakes, other accessories) are endless and marketed like crazy.

Which is great.

Field skills, OTOH, don't market well and are hard to monetize. Thus, you don't hear about or see them discussed on forums nearly as much.

Gospel, jeffbird.

I teach it to recruits in the FD, and I teach that to customers on the range.

Trigger time builds muscle memory. Eye muscles, facial muscles, arms, legs, diaphragm, abs, feet, all come into play once you get away from the bench, and away from prone. It's rare to get a prone shot on an animal. Foliage, and terrain usually prevent it. Not to mention the time needed to get into such a position. Dry firing is free, and extremely beneficial for those field scenarios. I've used trees, fences, rocks, trucks, trailers, what ever is available to get steady for a shot. I know what my body needs to do, for that height off the ground, because I found out what worked for me, in a calm, unrushed setting on the rifle range, and repeated it many times. So when the stress you mentioned arises, I am prepared to fall back on the training.

NP,

I was not thinking about long range at all in making that comment.

It applies to 100 yards or even 50 yards.

To me, the animal should not suffer.

I strive to make a clean swift kill so the animal passes from this life to the next literally in the blink of an eye.

I have been shot. It was a horrible experience, literally it feels like being set on fire.

I do not ever want to cause that kind of suffering to an animal.

Shooting skills directly correlate to the ability to make a shot that will cause instant death.

Despite the endless debates on here about this bullet vs. that bullet and 223 vs. 300 uber magnum, by far the biggest factor in the animal not suffering is the ability to place the bullet into a couple of critical areas.

If the bullet hits the brain - not head, but brain - death and incapacitation is instant.

The one other spot that produces the same instant death and incapacity is the upper thoracic spine between the shoulder blades to the base of the neck.

At 0 - 150 yards, I will always go for one of those two spots if it all possible. I know from practicing when I can and cannot make that shot to a near 100% certainty. If I know I cannot reliably make that shot, then I default to the high shoulder as it will also hit that same zone of the thoracic spine, but it is larger area with more margin for error due to shooter fatigue, shooting position, wind, distance, or other reason.

If I cannot hit one of those spots, then I wait until a better shot opportunity presents itself.

But when I pull the trigger, I know what will happen, there is no guesswork and no hoping that it will be a good shot.

Many on here talk about 1/2 MOA factory rifles with factory ammo that they can drop animals to 500 yards like a "chip shot".

In reality, several years ago one of the mods ran a put up or shut thread about Remington vs. Savage.

The showdown was 5 shots from a cold bore at 200 yards witnessed by another person who had to sign the target.

For some reason, almost no one posted a target. Most of the few that were posted were suboptimal at best from the viewpoint of a deer.

When I read on here about folks, not you, just flinging bullets when it is beyond glaringly apparent they have no idea of what they are doing, I just want to be sick thinking about the suffering they are causing. Reading about people taking head or neck shots when they post photos that make blatantly clear they cannot reliably make the shot with any degree of reliability makes me very sad, sick actually.

Seeing people post about the steps to make a shot, it is easy to tell who understands and who does not what is needed to make a reliably accurate shot.

Of course, many of these dialogues devolve into MBPR, what scope, what bullet, what rifle, how much power, what color camo, when in reality, it is the skill of the shooter.

The stark reality is that buying a nice rifle, nice scope, and great ammo is all helpful, but only with practice will it become a useful tool in the hands of hunter.

David Tubb (google him) could take an off the rack $400 Savage factory ammo with a junk scope as long as it holds together and spank most every single person on this board in any measure of shooting skill.

How much does he practice? Virtually every single day of his life.

Bottom line, I am talking about improving the level of proficiency of my shooting skills as it will increase the likelihood of making not just a good shot, but a reliably excellent shot. I know what the equipment and more importantly I can and cannot do. I am not 100%, no person is, but while the reliability factor is very high there is always room for improvement and more proficiency.

Love him or hate him, (I've never met him, but like and respect him), FJG has shown over and over again, he understands shooting skills. Could he and I learn hunting tips and tactics from you, without a doubt and I am always open to learning something new. I try to not cram my points of view on anyone, but offer some objective comments only on the subjects I know about.

Shot placement is far more important than power.

The standard target I use for practice is a sheet of copier paper with 20 1" dots at 100 yards or 100 meters. That is where most of my shots occur.

A 22lr is great practice, and one that I use regularly. But there is no substitute for using the rifle that will be used hunting.

Learning to control the rifle under recoil is a major part of making a reliably accurate shot.

If there is not a solid hold and body position, the most accurate rifle in the world will move as the bullet moves down the barrel. The heavier the bullet and the faster it goes, the more rearward force is exerted against the shooter's body. Learning to have a good body position, grip, and form, are critical to the bullet hitting the intended point of aim. That is also why in most shooting sports where there is no minimum caliber or power requirement, the vast majority of competitors will shoot relatively mild loads in 6mm or 6.5mm in most cases.

I'll leave the long range teaching to FJG as I do not have a long range nearby, but anyone that wants to improve their proficiency, I would be happy to work with you at 100 and 200.


I've posted these before, but this is what I strive for:

I clean mine regularly. Never had a problem. Never a big difference from first shot to second... I prefer the clean cold bore shot to be where I am with hunting rifles

For target, competition, or social work, I can see where there might be a difference.

Given basic shooting technique is solid, I just don't see it as being that difficult, especially to humanely kill deer size game out to 300 yards. Kind of like riding a bike......pretty simple. It's not like you're trying to hit a baseball going 90+ mph.

To the OP, I only clean mine when accuracy determines I need to.

I will shoot 1-3 rounds before season to see if the gun is still MOD (minute of deer) and go hunt.

A box of ammo in a larger caliber rifle usually lasts me 5 plus years.

This discussion is just the monthly variation of the same fundamental question that keeps coming up over and over endlessly.

Always comes down to what level of skill and proficiency folks think they have vs. what they really have - not directing that at you or anyone else, just a general observation.

For those that guide, what is the ability of the average client to reliably make a shot that drops the animal and out to what distance?

I think I have enough proficiency to not have lost a game animal I have pulled the trigger on since I was 17 years old (I don't count hogs/coyotes that I shoot at almost no matter the conditions). At least that's what the evidence bears out so far. Did some of them run 50-100 yards? Yes. Did I lose any sleep over that fact? No - thousands of deer and other animals die each year from predators, exposure, rut exhaustion, and many other causes. Mother Nature is cruel. I'm pretty sure their death at my hands was less painful/stressful than 99.9% of natural deaths. Could I miss my next shot? You bet. But, for me, (a guy who doesn't shoot for fun/recreation and doesn't plan to), overthinking something I've been doing since I was a kid would likely lead to poorer results, not better ones. YMMV, but that's my mindset for me alone.

I just came from the Yukon. 5 hunters. All with good rifles. Two with heavy, long-range rigs complete with turreted scopes, bipods, muzzle brakes, the whole nine yards. One of them shot a 5 round group of about 3" (I may be being kind). One sprayed rounds all over the target - the outfitter finally took his rifle, put 3 rounds within about an inch, and handed it back to him. (I'll wager what instructions his guide was given.) The best group of the bunch was by an Illinois kid on a hunt with his Dad who was real nervous about how he would do with his stock Rem 700 deer rifle. He sat down and promptly put 3 rounds practically touching one another.

I'm not seeking to draw any broad conclusions from any of that, but I did find it interesting.

To each their own. If you don't like shooting your guns then don't shoot them.

I would agree for most hunters shooting with a steady rest not more than 150 yards once a good shooting technique is learned that skill will remain for most.

For those type of hunters, they would of watched the 178 inch Mule Deer buck I shot at 275 yards on a trot through the heart trot away and dreamed of one day getting a shot at a buck like that they can make.....with a solid rest standing broadside at 150 yards or less. I did have shooting sticks but only had about ten seconds to sit down, get my sticks solid and make the shot. Some would call it lucky, I call it preparation paying off.

From practicing at different distances in varying shooting positions gives me confidence I can make those shots.

I shoot all year round as long as the weather is good

one exception is my daughters 7mm-08. After the season ends I'll clean it real good, leaving Bore Tech Bore Conditioner in it, muzzle down in the safe.

Just like our hunting trips, our "Range Day" is also special. We will go to the range, confirm zero on her gun , then put up a "deer" target. She will shoot it, aiming like she's hunting. Always fun, always hits her mark and fortunately hasn't lost or missed an animal yet. her time is her biggest problem, juggling work, boyfriend and her friends.

she should get out more and shoot. I would like to get her up to JG';s this fall and let her see how much fun shooing long range is

Very nice shooting jeffbird.

NP,

The men that can afford a Yukon sheep hunt are highly successful at their chosen path in life.

They likely can afford almost any rifle and scope made and have it in their hands within a week with a call.

Finding time for some practice is a far harder challenge for someone successfully running a business.

Finding the self-awareness to set aside their egos and admit that they would benefit from some instruction is an even bigger challenge as you obviously saw.

So your observation does not surprise me at all.

The problem was not the equipment as the guide demonstrated.

They can buy equipment, but not proficiency which has no shortcuts other than practice.

I remember a ranch owner who catered to wealthy hunters telling me that whenever he saw a new Weatherby rifle come out of a gun case he knew it was going to be a long night tracking deer with dogs.

I could walk out the door and buy a copy of this guitar 20 minutes down the street from my office here in Austin.

But, I cannot buy the decades of practice to make it produce these sounds.

Thank you PP.

Ah Oh.......you got me there. I'd say the hunters we've had over the past 15 years, 75% of them are proficient (given an adequate rest...prone, sticks, etc) out to 250 yds or so, the other 25% not so much. Due to the ever present W TX winds, we do not attempt much shooting over 400 yds. We can usually get closer anyway.

Good points jeffbird, in your last and previous post. I don't disagree with any of them.