One of the most overlooked factors in all of this is genetics.

I've seen guys spend hundreds a month on supplements, work out 5-6 times a week very hard, but still somehow look like an AID's patient.

But they are "wiry".

KWood....how long do those workouts take you? What rest periods are you using between sets?

That looks like a long, hard workout!

Consumed 203g of protein yesterday which was hard. I'll start lifting heavier today.

I have read that genetics is the number one factor in results. Maybe I'll not shape up the way I want but at least I'll have my smarts.

I agree, consuming that much protein in solid food without supplements is hard for me too. I couldn't eat that much without feeling bloated and too full all the time with my other foods, so I had to add in shakes to get in all the calories and protein I needed.

One thing I will add....I hit a plateau a couple months ago, so for example, for my bench I have switched to really focus on incline bench with varying levels of incline and have focused more heavily on dips, with much less emphasis on flat bench. I also may start with inclines one workout and the next workout I will switch the order and go in reverse. I have noticed some change for me and I will do this for a couple months and then switch it around again.

Keep at it, you will get there!!

People do not burn calories the same way they consume them. After digestion they go into your system and stay in a general metabolic pool. The amounts of fats, carbohydrates, and protein consumed have little or no effect on your upper body muscle growth. Google general metabolic pool and see for yourself.

Where did I say diet doesn't matter and you should do the same workout? I said exactly the opposite. Your protein powder and protein bar advice is pure garbage no other way around it. "You just got to drink it" is a great way to get bloated, kill your kidneys and piss away a lot of money for no reason.

If you don't think Bench, Squat and Deadlift should be the base of a strength program I don't know what to tell you but all the experts who do it for a living will disagree with you. Mark Rippatoe and Louie Simmons have trained the strongest men in the world and they don't do it by bodybuilding.

His goal is to get stronger so he should be doing a strength type program. Not hypertrophy. You can gain muscle and still not get stronger, that's a fact. Two different types of training you have strength training which will be done in the low rep range (1-5 reps) and hypertrophy (body building) which will be done in the higher rep range (8-15 reps). You will get very different results doing one way versus the other.

You're wrong, Bill. You can't consistently build muscle with a diet that is deficient in protein. Period. It's simple biochemistry, muscles are made up of protein and water and need both to grow.

You said "ignore every bit of this". I said essentially, he needs to have a proper diet, get the proper amount of protein, change up his workouts, and to get stronger past a certain point he's going to have to get bigger. Those are all facts.

You then went on to basically say the same thing I had just said.....switch up your routines, 1 gram per pound of bodyweight, etc. Just funny how my post is garbage but then you say the same thing.

And by the way, increasing protein intake, including whey protein, has been shown to be beneficial for overall health and will not harm your kidneys at all. Do some research on the topic before you spout off on things you don't know about.

Take a look at some studies done on the subject...
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthrea...1#post813528571

Maybe you missed the title of the thread "Weight lifting upper body muscle GROWTH - in a rut". Last time I checked, growth is hypertrophy.

Reading comprehension would help you.

Nothing in my post even addressed the specific workouts....again, reading comprehension would do you some good.

I just ordered a morning protein shake. I'd like to get 60-70g in my system by 7am. That makes the other 160g or so easier.

So I guess you just read the title and not his actual stated goals then?

"Initially, I set some achievable goals:
Get Stronger - progressing but slow in my opinion
Add Weight - I don't stay comfortable for long - I've doubled the weight from when I initially started if not more"

Getting stronger and adding more weight to his lifts is not hypertrophy it's strength. He is most likely pretty new to this and doesn't know the difference between strength and hypertrophy which is why he said "add upper body muscle growth" in the title but his stated goals are not adding muscle but adding strength. Newbies don't know that muscle doesn't necessarily = strength.

Again none of this changes the fact that your advice to consume expensive garbage protein sources is terrible advice for anyone doing anything. Whole natural foods will always give you better results than processed garbage.

You will gain as much if not more fat than muscle from doing this. Mark my words.

Maybe you didn't read his stated question...

His specific question was "What would help with my growth?". I answered it.

I guess we can just disagree that consuming protein shakes as a supplement is terrible advice. I know what works, what weight lifters, bodybuilders, and athletes do, and what research says....that is good enough for me. I never said natural foods aren't good, but for most people to get enough protein when they weigh 230 lbs is gonna take some protein supplementation.

Carry on...

A few months ago, I had to take a break from all the online information related to working out because it all conflicted. One leading experts opinion would say the opposite from the next leading expert.

I use ISO 100 by Dymatize. It's a Whey Protein with no fat, very low carbs, and 110 calories per serving with 25 grams protein and BCAA's. It's a very clean protein and you aren't gonna get fat from that, and it can help you get some more calories for a surplus while making sure you hit your protein goals.

If you take a mass gainer with tons of carbs and fats, then sure, you will gain fat as well. I've done that and while I gained weight it also added to my midsection so I quit and now just stick to clean protein to add lean muscle.

"It's a Whey Protein with no fat, very low carbs, and 110 calories per serving with 25 grams protein and BCAA's. You aren't gonna get fat from that and it can help you get some more calories for a surplus while making sure you hit your protein goals.

If you take a mass gainer with tons of carbs and fats, then sure, you will gain fat as well."

Dietary fat is not bad for it. It doesn't make you any more fat than carbs or proteins. In fact carbs are the real enemy as far as fat gain is concerned. This is the biggest misconception ever.

You can and will get fat from eating too much protein, that is a fact. All the excess protein you take in is stored as fat. Doc is way behind on the science, he is stating old bodybuilding bro science from 20 years ago.

I lost 10 pounds of fat from eating a ketogenic diet which was 70% fat, 20-25% protein and 5-10% carbs. Read the article from Doctor Mercola I posted. He actually is up to date with the new science.


http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/heal...-after-40-years

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/2012/05/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-low-carbohydrate-diet/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christiane-northrup/saturated-fat_b_4914235.html

https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_attia_what_if_we_re_wrong_about_diabetes/transcript?language=en

Low carb/sugar Whey protein in itself will not make you gain fat and may not even create an insulin spike (depending on how sensitive your body is to sugar)

It will however increase your overall calorie intake without giving you a satisfying feeling (I never could cure my hunger with whey or meal replacements)

Everyone's body is different, but I'm a firm believer that any excess animal fats and proteins consumed are used for energy IN THE ABSENCE OF CARBOHYDRATES.

It is an absolute fact (in regards to my body at 37 years old with mild activity) that I cannot gain fat when I cut real/fake sugar and carbs from my diet (two months of zero carbs with 5000 calories daily with little exercise resulted in no weight change)

Was losing an average of 4 pounds a week when I kept those calories around 2500 while keeping carbohydrates at 0.

Very true. My son's ending totals in powerlifting were almost identical to mine. Lots of changes over the last 30 years, but the genes stayed the same.

It doesn't matter if your excess calories come from fat, protein, or carbs. Caloric surplus in any form causes you to gain weight....not too much protein, Huck. Your body needs the correct balance of macros to consistently gain muscle with resistance training. It's not bro science, it's biochemistry. Protein is the building block of muscle...it needs proteins to grow. You aren't going to gain muscle from eating extra carbs and fats...those are used by the body for fuel. Regeneration and hypertrophy of muscle comes from your body breaking down and using proteins. Your body will break down less protein through catabolism by oxidation with a proper balance of carbs and fats in your diet, and that is why those are important as well. You can keep arguing with me if you want, but I'm done with you. I'm tired of you agreeing with me and arguing at the same time and proving your posts wrong.

http://www.builtlean.com/2013/09/17/muscles-grow/

Your ketogenic diet had a caloric deficit...that's why you lost weight. It had nothing to do with your low protein.

Is this the Dr. Mercola you're talking about? After reading about him, I wouldn't trust a single thing he recommends....just read through his views on medicine, vaccines, etc. He's basically a medical and scientific outcast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

"Mercola has been criticized by business, regulatory, medical, and scientific communities. A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial stated his marketing practices relied on "slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics."[3] In 2005, 2006, and 2011, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration warned Mercola and his company to stop making illegal claims regarding his products' ability to detect, prevent, and treat disease.[6] The medical watchdog site Quackwatch has criticized Mercola for making "unsubstantiated claims [that] clash with those of leading medical and public health organizations and many unsubstantiated recommendations for dietary supplements."[6]

Yes your body needs protein to grow but far less than what your saying. There are body builders that use a keto diet and gain muscle. And if your in a caloric surplus your gonna gain fat, no way around it. Doesn't matter if that surplus is from protein.

https://ketogains.com

Saturated fats and cholesterol are also important building blocks to gain muscle. There is a reason why the navy seals use the ketogenic diet. You can attack Doctor Mercola all you want but many other doctors like Peter Atilla and Dominic D'Agosteno who is doing work with the keto diet for the Navy Seals agree with him and the science has consistently been moving in that direction. You are wrong and 20 years from now you might figure it out. If your "done with me" then move along. I'm just trying to save the OP the trouble of gaining 10 pounds of fat from your ignorant advice.

I've posted many links with studies and proof to back up my claims you've done no such thing. And yes your advice is 20 year old bodybuilding bro science.

You mean all those trustworthy main stream doctors opinions that have been killing people for years.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html?_r=0&referer=https://duckduckgo.com/

Ever notice how all the pro excess protein powder articles come from sites like bodybuilding.com that sell....you guessed it those same garbage protein powders.

Your way behind the times scientifically.